Visible Pivot Aiming

L

Low500

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Some players are quite visibly pivoting. Two good ones come to mind right away.
Bustamante and Reyes.
I doubt either one has any instructions in CTE, but they do pivot their cue into the shot line from an offset angle. They're not doing that to be cute....there is a reason behind it. And they could care less about the "why"....they just know it helps them rob arrogant Americans.:wink:
Bustamante is much easier to spot than Efren.
Those Filipinos stick together and they are far-r-r-r from stupid.
Grady mentioned to me once that he had talked to Efren about that pivoting stuff and Efren was silent. (this was when Grady was backing him a lot)
My bet is they transfer this valuable knowledge to each other.
Comments from those other than gripers are welcome. Please do not derail this thread with hatred and bitterness.
 
JoeyInCali

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
Another myth.

Here's another myth, many years ago one group of fanatics claimed Efren , Jose and Bustamante saw an aiming guru in the US.
I then asked why da fkk would Efren and Jose see an aiming guru when they could shoot spot shots on the Big Bertha table at Hard Times all day .
And that table had corner pockets that barely fit the one snooker ball.

Busti showed on video he aims fat and spins the object ball often.
There goes the myth that he pivots to pocket the ball dead center of the pocket.
He actually aims TO MISS the pocket and make it with the spin.
All ON TAR VIDEO.


His habit of stroking to the left of the cueball then going to the center of the cueball is just that , A HABIT. Y
ou wanna explain his cocked-in elbow too?

Efren uses a ghost pocket system. You can catch him place his shaft above the Object ball with the tip on the cloth about less than a foot from the object ball sometimes. You watch him play one pocket live a lot, you might catch him do it on backwards cut.
If you wanna argue he doesn't, we can argue in Tagalog because you can then tell me you talked to him in Tagalog b/c Efren does not speak English all that well. Grady must have confused Efren with his question.

People equate his backhand and front hand English to push their pivoting aiming system agenda. You can catch him walk his bridge hand sometimes.
If he used a pivoting aiming system, he should like low deflection shafts.
Tell us why he has refused to GET PAID and PLAY WITH LOW deflection shafts ?
Surely, that would be better for pivoting aiming system.

Glad to be on your ignore list.
 
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ENGLISH!

ENGLISH!

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JoeyInCali said:
Another myth.

Here's another myth, many years ago one group of fanatics claimed Efren , Jose and Bustamante saw an aiming guru in the US.
I then asked why da fkk would Efren and Jose see an aiming guru when they could shoot spot shots on the Big Bertha table at Hard Times all day .
And that table had corner pockets that barely fit the one snooker ball.

Busti showed on video he aims fat and spins the object ball often.
There goes the myth that he pivots to pocket the ball dead center of the pocket.
He actually aims TO MISS the pocket and make it with the spin.
All ON TAR VIDEO.


His habit of stroking to the left of the cueball then going to the center of the cueball is just that , A HABIT. Y
ou wanna explain his cocked-in elbow too?

Efren uses a ghost pocket system. You can catch him place his shaft above the Object ball with the tip on the cloth about less than a foot from the object ball sometimes. You watch him play one pocket live a lot, you might catch him do it on backwards cut.
If you wanna argue he doesn't, we can argue in Tagalog because you can then tell me you talked to him in Tagalog b/c Efren does not speak English all that well. Grady must have confused Efren with his question.

People equate his backhand and front hand English to push their pivoting aiming system agenda. You can catch him walk his bridge hand sometimes.
If he used a pivoting aiming system, he should like low deflection shafts.
Tell us why he has refused to GET PAID and PLAY WITH LOW deflection shafts ?
Surely, that would be better for pivoting aiming system.

Glad to be on your ignore list.
Click to expand...

TAP! TAP! TAP!

&

:thumbup2: :thumbup2: :thumbup2:

I saw Efren play in a 9 ball tournament a little less that a month ago up close as though he was playing in my den. If Efren is using ANY kind of a pivot system or method it is Completely Invisible... even to Efren.

More of the same crap to push what was never supposed to be...

& does NOT exist.

I shook hands with him & congratulated him after the match & he just looked me in the eye & smiled.

Here is something that I think is a bit interesting. The guy he was playing rattled the 9 & it spit out about 2 balls off the foot rail & 1.25 diamonds from the pocket with the CB about 20 to 24 inches away. A simple cut into the same corner pocket. Efren went 4 rails... but here is the interesting part... the CB went to dead center in the corner pocket & stopped. The 9 ball came around 4 rails & hit the CB DEAD CENTER... knocking the CB in & leaving 9 sitting in the pocket.

I think he felt sorry for the guy missing the 9 for the only game he could have won so he did that... "on purpose".

I could be wrong about that, but his body language & sort of kidding reaction led me to at least consider it.

Best Wishes to You, Joey.
 
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JoeyInCali

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
ENGLISH! said:
TAP! TAP! TAP!

&

:thumbup2: :thumbup2: :thumbup2:

I saw Efren play in a 9 ball tournament a little less that a month ago up close as though he was playing in my den. If Efren is using ANY kind of a pivot system or method it is Completely Invisible... even to Efren.

More of the same crap to push what was never supposed to be...

& does NOT exist.

I shook hands with him & congratulated him after the match & he just looked me in the eye & smiled.

Here is something that I think is a bit interesting. The guy he was playing rattled the 9 & it spit out about 2 balls off the foot rail & 1.25 diamonds from the pocket with the CB about 20 to 24 inches away. A simple cut into the same corner pocket. Efren went 4 rails... but here is the interesting part... the CB went to dead center in the corner pocket & stopped. The 9 ball came around 4 rails & hit the CB DEAD CENTER... knocking the CB in & leaving 9 sitting in the pocket.

I think he felt sorry for the guy missing the 9 for the only game he could have won so he did that... "on purpose".

I could be wrong about that, but his body language & sort of kidding reaction led me to at least consider it.

Best Wishes to You, Joey.
Click to expand...

Efren missed this one.
He MADE the ball. :grin-square:
https://youtu.be/EKvntgHh8s4?t=239
 
Straightpool_99

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
Bustamante MAY be a pivot aimer. I haven't studied him, but he does appear to do some edge to edge lining up at times, and he pivots ofc. Efren...I don't think so.

Every right handed player that goes low over the cue, will naturally pivot it slightly to the right as he goes all the way down. I mean, you can train this out of your game, but that is the natural tendency of most right handed peoples bodies. If you are otherwise well lined up, it's easier to stroke dead straight when you let this happen, in my experience.

This can be exaggerated by "sitting back" on your hips as well. This has nothing to do with aiming and everything to do with physiology. I always found it unnatural to pivot left, as this actually fights what my body wants to do. For snooker players there is added value in "winding the spring" by resting on the hip of the straight leg and sort of "torquing" in your upper body. It's hard to describe, but it feels like you lock into your stance when you pivot the cue slightly right. This is often happening in a smooth motion on the way down, and may not be easily detected in all players. If you're old and obese, this technique is probably not for you. I'm pushing the limits myself, I feel, and probably shouldn't be doing this, but it does offer that extra, elusive 2% more stability...

Maybe this is the phenomenon that Stan Shuffet describes when he talks about players "sweeping" into the shot, especially snooker players? I don't want to start any shit here, I'm genuinly interested.
 
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Straightpool_99 said:
Bustamante MAY be a pivot aimer. I haven't studied him, but he does appear to do some edge to edge lining up at times, and he pivots ofc. Efren...I don't think so.

Every right handed player that goes low over the cue, will naturally pivot it slightly to the right as he goes all the way down. I mean, you can train this out of your game, but that is the natural tendency of most right handed peoples bodies. If you are otherwise well lined up, it's easier to stroke dead straight when you let this happen, in my experience.

This can be exaggerated by "sitting back" on your hips as well. This has nothing to do with aiming and everything to do with physiology. I always found it unnatural to pivot left, as this actually fights what my body wants to do. For snooker players there is added value in "winding the spring" by resting on the hip of the straight leg and sort of "torquing" in your upper body. It's hard to describe, but it feels like you lock into your stance when you pivot the cue slightly right. This is often happening in a smooth motion on the way down, and may not be easily detected in all players. If you're old and obese, this technique is probably not for you. I'm pushing the limits myself, I feel, and probably shouldn't be doing this, but it does offer that extra, elusive 2% more stability...

Maybe this is the phenomenon that Stan Shuffet describes when he talks about players "sweeping" into the shot, especially snooker players? I don't want to start any shit here, I'm genuinly interested.
Click to expand...

1. This thread was not opened to be intended for discussion of pivot systems or methods, imHo.

2. The "phenomena" has never been mentioned to have anything to do with the pivot whether it be the stick or the body, as I remember. It has been referred to as a "visual" phenomena having to do with the balls 'presenting' themselves differently so that the CTEL goes to a different edge even when the balls are the same distance apart which is impossible unless one moves & then can not see the two lines equally & simultaneously per science. It is what is needed, but does not exist.

3. I use to use a stance very much like a snooker stance but w/o the locked right knee. To me that is very much not an athletic position & I play the game more as a sport than a game, but it "can" lock one up a bit more, but I found it to also be a bit bad for the back. I think it ALL depends on the individual.

4. I hit balls on a snooker table about 6 weeks ago for the 1st. time in 47 years. I was shocked how well I was putting them in. Then, 2 weeks later they were taking the snooker cloth off & putting fast Simonis cloth on it. I think the snooker cloth may have had something to do with how well I was hitting them because I hit nearly every shot with at least a bit of diagonal english. I just had a great feel for that cloth. The slower pool table cloth of the old days was better imHo. One had to have a stroke back then.

Best Wishes.
 
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Straightpool_99

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
ENGLISH! said:
1. This thread was not opened to be intended for discussion of pivot systems or methods, imHo.

2. The "phenomena" has never been mentioned to have anything to do with the pivot whether it be the stick or the body, as I remember. It has been referred to as a "visual" phenomena having to do with the balls 'presenting' themselves differently so that the CTEL goes to a different edge even when the balls are the same distance apart which is impossible unless one moves & then can not see the two lines equally & simultaneously per science. It is what is needed, but does not exist.

3. I use to use a stance very much like a snooker stance but w/o the locked right knee. To me that is very much not an athletic position & I play the game more as a sport than a game, but it "can" lock one up a bit more, but I found it to also be a bit bad for the back. I think it ALL depends on the individual.

4. I hit balls on a snooker table about 6 weeks ago for the 1st. time in 47 years. I was shocked how well I was putting them in. Then, 2 weeks later they were taking the snooker cloth off & putting fast Simonis cloth on it. I think the snooker cloth may have had something to do with how well I was hitting them because I hit nearly every shot with at least a bit of diagonal english. I just had a great feel for that cloth. The slower pool table cloth of the old days was better imHo. One had to have a stroke back then.

Best Wishes.
Click to expand...

1. My reply was an attempt at explaining WHY some people may appear to be pivoting, when it's only a natural tendency of their stance/alignment.

2. Don't want' to talk about the visuals/perceptions etc. it's been done to death and goes nowhere. I do remember Stan Shuffet talking about bringing the cue from left to right, though.

3. It's probably not good for the back, and I suspect it can also strain the knee. I'm working on finding a compromise. At the moment my knee is slightly bent, and I'm still hurting a bit. Doing this on a lower pool table would cripple me for sure.

4. It's easier to get a proper "push" stroke on slower cloth. "Ice" cloth makes every shot feel like a "poke" to me.
 
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Straightpool_99 said:
1. My reply was an attempt at explaining WHY some people may appear to be pivoting, when it's only a natural tendency of their stance/alignment.

2. Don't want' to talk about the visuals/perceptions etc. it's been done to death and goes nowhere. I do remember Stan Shuffet talking about bringing the cue from left to right, though.

3. It's probably not good for the back, and I suspect it can also strain the knee. I'm working on finding a compromise. At the moment my knee is slightly bent, and I'm still hurting a bit. Doing this on a lower pool table would cripple me for sure.

4. It's easier to get a proper "push" stroke on slower cloth. "Ice" cloth makes every shot feel like a "poke" to me.
Click to expand...

Some Good Stuff there, Sir.

1. Yes.

2. But it ALL depends on the supposed visual phenomena thing, but I understand that you are just not interested in all of that.

3. My stance was square with both legs just flexed sort of like a middle linebacker... more ready to move forward than rearward. To move to his right a ML would pivot at the hip as he subconsciously preps for the first step... & that is also how to turn into the down position from a more square stance.

4. I hear Ya. I really was shocked how well I was hitting those snooker shots 47 years after the last time I had done so. I enjoyed that more than the time I spent on the pool table that day. I've since hit them on the "ICE" cloth & it was no where near as enjoyable. (I use a 'flat' piston stroke with a low head, but NOT with my chin on the cue.)

Best Wishes.
 
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Boxcar said:
Joey,

At my age, I'm just in it for the laughs. So I just got finished watching Alex and Busti. Somdomabeets, ma', dat was sum fonny chit. THANK YOU!!!!!
Click to expand...

Is your first name Boudreaux? You accent sounds familiar.
 
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D

duckie

GregH
Silver Member
So those that pivot to the shot line don’t use side spin then.

You can’t put high inside on the CB and have the cue be on the shot line.
 
BC21

BC21

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Stan Shuffett has made similar erroneous statements about Efren snd Bustamonte. The fact is, pivoting or sweeping the cue is absolutely no indication that a player is using CTE perception "phenomena" while estimating bridge distances and exact inside or outside 1/2 tip offsets. Bustamonte, as well as a couple of non-pro players I know, simply keeps his cue pointed out toward the edge of the cb so he can have an unobstructed view of aiming the cb at the ob. It has nothing to do with pivoting or sweeping to ccb from a 1/2 tip offset based on a 2-line visual that gets him within 10° to 15° of the actual shot line, which then requires a pivot or sweep to make up for this 10 to 15 degrees.

Maybe the phenomena here is that players can actually stand and aim from directly behind the cb, target shooting, looking straight through the cb to determine where it needs to be when it gets to the ob, and then miraculously making it work. It's that simple.
 
Straightpool_99

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
JoeyInCali said:
https://youtu.be/6Y2qoCtdiak?t=2672
There ya go since you didn't believe me .

Edge to edge then pivot ?
I guess he forgets it when he shoots behind the back ?https://youtu.be/D2tsrihXk7k?t=445
Click to expand...

I'm not surprised he likes to spin balls in. A lot of players of that generation does this. The pivot or putting the cue to the side, can probably be somewhat Equal to putting the tip to the bottom of the ball, just a way to ground the cue to something easy to see, for consistency of alignment.

It's tough to tell what People are thinking from watching them. To me it sometimes looks like he uses an aiming system I saw somewhere, I can't remember exactly where, but it used a half ball pivot and edge to edge alignment for some shots. At other times it looks like he's doing something entirely different. I really don't know what to think, but I'll just settle for trusting him when he says he spins the balls in.

In any case, it's a little bit of a moot point. I'm not going to copy Stricklands every move, and certainly not Bustamantes. I think you'd be very optimistic to try to achieve success With Bustamantes technique, unless you started very Young and played 12 hours a day for years. There's just to much going on, too many Things have to go exactly right for this to work. cocked in elbow, Bicycle stroke With a huge pivot...I mean, it's beautiful to watch the smoothness but a nightmare to emulate.
 
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BC21 said:
Stan Shuffett has made similar erroneous statements about Efren snd Bustamonte. The fact is, pivoting or sweeping the cue is absolutely no indication that a player is using CTE perception "phenomena" while estimating bridge distances and exact inside or outside 1/2 tip offsets. Bustamonte, as well as a couple of non-pro players I know, simply keeps his cue pointed out toward the edge of the cb so he can have an unobstructed view of aiming the cb at the ob. It has nothing to do with pivoting or sweeping to ccb from a 1/2 tip offset based on a 2-line visual that gets him within 10° to 15° of the actual shot line, which then requires a pivot or sweep to make up for this 10 to 15 degrees.

Maybe the phenomena here is that players can actually stand and aim from directly behind the cb, target shooting, looking straight through the cb to determine where it needs to be when it gets to the ob, and then miraculously making it work. It's that simple.
Click to expand...

More concise(with less info) than the Great Post by Dan White, but...

GREAT Post, Brian.
 
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About a month age I was sitting 'ringside' as Alex was playing 1 pocket vs Jeremy Jones on the main table...

& who walks up & stands right over my shoulder? Yes, Buste.

I wanted so badly to ask him, in person, about this crap, but we were too close to the action to get into it.

So... a lost opportuning to get it straight from him & put this crap into the toilet where it belongs.
 
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I think it is shameful what some will try to do to garner attention & false 'endorsements' of a product.
 
BC21

BC21

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ENGLISH! said:
About a month age I was sitting 'ringside' as Alex was playing 1 pocket vs Jeremy Jones on the main table...

& who walks up & stands right over my shoulder? Yes, Buste.

I wanted so badly to ask him, in person, about this crap, but we were too close to the action to get into it.

So... a lost opportuning to get it straight from him & put this crap into the toilet where it belongs.
Click to expand...

He flushes that rediculous notion right here with his own words.....https://youtu.be/6Y2qoCtdiak?t=2710s.

He is simply aiming to put the cb where it needs to be in order to pocket the ball. He even shows exactly where he is going to aim, in reference to the ob itself, in order to account for the outside spin he's going to use on the cb, which is exactly how I'd look at the shot also, aiming "thicker" than it looks to offset the spin I'm going to use, ignoring squirt and swerve and whatever, just knowing (without consciously thinking) where the cb needs to be and how to get it there.
 
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