taper and size

td and all about equipment

When I was competing, I didn't like to get beat period! :wink: But.... I always enjoyed winning with the worst equipment, not that it was bad equipment. I held on to playing with my wood tennis racquets looong after they went out of favor, and enjoyed winning against man made composites..... until I couldn't (just like you stated). Too old and uncompetitive to switch from my wood shafts now.

td


TD, first with a mind like a steel trap, usually closed, I am going to wish you and yours a Merry Christmas before it sneaks by me!

I always liked to make the sorry equipment look good too but I never wanted a full time effort with it. When my circle track car won I didn't do any wild celebrating, I had just done my job and I was satisfied. When I drove for somebody else and pushed what was affectionately known as a shltbox four to six places closer to the front than it was supposed to be, why that tickled me! I still might not jump up and down but it meant a lot more than winning with my own car.

The same with my other competition equipment, even the tools of my trade. All the best, because I laid out the cash to make it so. The best is the "best" for a reason and when you don't have it handy you find out the difference in a hurry!

Moving on, I think there may be some overlap between the best spliced wooden shafts and the CF shafts, there really isn't a huge gap. Not in cost either when we take the long view.

However, lets suppose the average beginner has been directed to the best in all the land and a very cheap beginner cue. Not terrible but a plain maple shaft, decent but not great joint, solid butt. At this point, or as soon as they get away from hitting very near center ball all the time, he or she will play better with a low deflection shaft. No way around it. A lot of balls will go in the hole if they are hit in less than the optimum place. Think of a ball a few inches from the pocket, there is a wide range of tolerance that is good enough for the ball to fall. Then we have two shafts. One will have the cue ball two inches off it's path with the same error that the other puts the cue ball a half inch off it's path. Which one will the beginner pocket more balls with?

The second issue, in six months or a year the guy with the fifty to a hundred dollar cue is going to start thinking they need a better tip. Out fifty bucks and he has to relearn what works. Another six months down the line he has the itch for a fancy shaft with or without a new butt attached. If he gets a new shaft that maple is kindling. The whole cue might go for half what he paid for it if he is lucky. Now he has to learn where to aim all over again.

The easiest way to learn how to play is with low deflection equipment to begin with. As a plus, he only has to learn where to aim the cue ball once. If he makes a mistake, he doesn't pay as big a price as if he made the same misjudgment with a plain maple shaft.

If money is the main decision maker, that I can understand. The nice cue can be sold with little or no loss later if somebody decides pool isn't for them but maybe cash up front is a decider. What I can't agree with is the rationale that somebody isn't good enough for the best playing equipment yet! Having competed at many things I can plainly state it is much easier to get started on top quality equipment than crappy or lower quality equipment. That doesn't mean a person has to spend a lot of money. A thousand dollar cue including CF shaft will play as well as any cue.

Let's assume for the moment that both shafts cost the same to take dollars out of the equation. It would make far more sense to start with low deflection equipment and only after mastering low deflection equipment tinker with higher deflection shafts to go around interfering balls easier. Starting a beginner with a plain maple shaft is starting them with the tougher equipment to play on, it makes no sense.

I have watched beginners struggling with poor equipment many a time. Loan them decent equipment for a little while and the sun comes out. A plain maple shaft isn't poor equipment but it is poorer equipment to learn on.

Hu
 
TD, first with a mind like a steel trap, usually closed, I am going to wish you and yours a Merry Christmas before it sneaks by me!

I always liked to make the sorry equipment look good too but I never wanted a full time effort with it. When my circle track car won I didn't do any wild celebrating, I had just done my job and I was satisfied. When I drove for somebody else and pushed what was affectionately known as a shltbox four to six places closer to the front than it was supposed to be, why that tickled me! I still might not jump up and down but it meant a lot more than winning with my own car.

The same with my other competition equipment, even the tools of my trade. All the best, because I laid out the cash to make it so. The best is the "best" for a reason and when you don't have it handy you find out the difference in a hurry!

Moving on, I think there may be some overlap between the best spliced wooden shafts and the CF shafts, there really isn't a huge gap. Not in cost either when we take the long view.

However, lets suppose the average beginner has been directed to the best in all the land and a very cheap beginner cue. Not terrible but a plain maple shaft, decent but not great joint, solid butt. At this point, or as soon as they get away from hitting very near center ball all the time, he or she will play better with a low deflection shaft. No way around it. A lot of balls will go in the hole if they are hit in less than the optimum place. Think of a ball a few inches from the pocket, there is a wide range of tolerance that is good enough for the ball to fall. Then we have two shafts. One will have the cue ball two inches off it's path with the same error that the other puts the cue ball a half inch off it's path. Which one will the beginner pocket more balls with?

The second issue, in six months or a year the guy with the fifty to a hundred dollar cue is going to start thinking they need a better tip. Out fifty bucks and he has to relearn what works. Another six months down the line he has the itch for a fancy shaft with or without a new butt attached. If he gets a new shaft that maple is kindling. The whole cue might go for half what he paid for it if he is lucky. Now he has to learn where to aim all over again.

The easiest way to learn how to play is with low deflection equipment to begin with. As a plus, he only has to learn where to aim the cue ball once. If he makes a mistake, he doesn't pay as big a price as if he made the same misjudgment with a plain maple shaft.

If money is the main decision maker, that I can understand. The nice cue can be sold with little or no loss later if somebody decides pool isn't for them but maybe cash up front is a decider. What I can't agree with is the rationale that somebody isn't good enough for the best playing equipment yet! Having competed at many things I can plainly state it is much easier to get started on top quality equipment than crappy or lower quality equipment. That doesn't mean a person has to spend a lot of money. A thousand dollar cue including CF shaft will play as well as any cue.

Let's assume for the moment that both shafts cost the same to take dollars out of the equation. It would make far more sense to start with low deflection equipment and only after mastering low deflection equipment tinker with higher deflection shafts to go around interfering balls easier. Starting a beginner with a plain maple shaft is starting them with the tougher equipment to play on, it makes no sense.

I have watched beginners struggling with poor equipment many a time. Loan them decent equipment for a little while and the sun comes out. A plain maple shaft isn't poor equipment but it is poorer equipment to learn on.

Hu

Hu, I seldom, if ever disagree with what you say but, I'm gonna say that if I could take a LD shaft back in time and learn as a newb with it instead of learning with the plain maple I learned with......I wouldn't do it. No way....

I understand what and why you are saying it. Furthermore, I agree that it would be better for the average person but, IMO, the more serious the player, the more need to have the knowledge base of both.

Jeff

Edit:

For the record, I use a revo on a predator roadline5 butt...and layered (g2) tip.

Nothing old school about my equipment anymore.....only me.
 
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"get'em a .410!"

Hu, I seldom, if ever disagree with what you say but, I'm gonna say that if I could take a LD shaft back in time and learn as a newb with it instead of learning with the plain maple I learned with......I wouldn't do it. No way....

I understand what and why you are saying it. Furthermore, I agree that it would be better for the average person but, IMO, the more serious the player, the more need to have the knowledge base of both.

Jeff

Edit:

For the record, I use a revo on a predator roadline5 butt...and layered (g2) tip.

Nothing old school about my equipment anymore.....only me.




Jeff,

I don't object to anyone learning to play with both. I would just start a beginner on the easiest one first. Back off topic, I learned to drive circle track in my late model, the top class. Handled fair but it had some issues it took a few months to sort out. It also had pushing 600 ponies under the hood which solved a lot of problems on a dirt track. I was a pretty fair driver by the time I tried my first ride in a hobby class car that most people start in. That foul beast wouldn't turn in a forty acre field and when it got out of shape I was just had because there wasn't crap for horsepower to shove it around a turn on the back tires. Then I understood why it took people several years driving hobby cars to learn what I had learned in several months.

Having said that. I have two cheap sticks. One has a flat laminate blank in my own custom taper that I bought dirt cheap when somebody was trying to get cue makers to start buying them. The other one has a plain maple blank I turned out of my "B" grade blank pile. Good enough for a cue maker! When somebody starts a million a year senior or super senior tour I'll buy me one of those high-tech shafts. Until then, I have the itch but a lot better places to put the scratch!:D

I also practice a slipstroke a little most trips to the hall. Just because I think it is an art that shouldn't be lost. It has it's uses sometimes too.

Edit: Just to explain the confusing title I can't edit. The .410 is a pro's gun often given to beginners. I deleted that section and described the same thing in cars leaving my title orphaned and forgotten up there. Sorry!

Hu
 
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Jeff,

I don't object to anyone learning to play with both. I would just start a beginner on the easiest one first. Back off topic, I learned to drive circle track in my late model, the top class. Handled fair but it had some issues it took a few months to sort out. It also had pushing 600 ponies under the hood which solved a lot of problems on a dirt track. I was a pretty fair driver by the time I tried my first ride in a hobby class car that most people start in. That foul beast wouldn't turn in a forty acre field and when it got out of shape I was just had because there wasn't crap for horsepower to shove it around a turn on the back tires. Then I understood why it took people several years driving hobby cars to learn what I had learned in several months.

Having said that. I have two cheap sticks. One has a flat laminate blank in my own custom taper that I bought dirt cheap when somebody was trying to get cue makers to start buying them. The other one has a plain maple blank I turned out of my "B" grade blank pile. Good enough for a cue maker! When somebody starts a million a year senior or super senior tour I'll buy me one of those high-tech shafts. Until then, I have the itch but a lot better places to put the scratch!:D

I also practice a slipstroke a little most trips to the hall. Just because I think it is an art that shouldn't be lost. It has it's uses sometimes too.

Edit: Just to explain the confusing title I can't edit. The .410 is a pro's gun often given to beginners. I deleted that section and described the same thing in cars leaving my title orphaned and forgotten up there. Sorry!

Hu

Hell hu, it's hard for a mortal to argue with such strong logic sir!

I'm one of the biggest fans of modern tech but, I feel I enjoy even the subtle differences mostly because the time spent with lesser equipment.

You know what they say...."we don't miss it, till it's gone".

Well, how can a player truly appreciate the modern cue without the hard earned knowledge of how to do it with a high deflection cue?

Again, I think (know for a fact) we are on the same page and actually agree with one another. It just doesn't read or sound like it.

Jeff
 
Pretty sure you are right!

Jeff,

I'm pretty sure you are right about being on the same page. While I might advise other people to do different things I have no intention of giving up my maple or the slipstroke!

Hu



Hell hu, it's hard for a mortal to argue with such strong logic sir!

I'm one of the biggest fans of modern tech but, I feel I enjoy even the subtle differences mostly because the time spent with lesser equipment.

You know what they say...."we don't miss it, till it's gone".

Well, how can a player truly appreciate the modern cue without the hard earned knowledge of how to do it with a high deflection cue?

Again, I think (know for a fact) we are on the same page and actually agree with one another. It just doesn't read or sound like it.

Jeff
 
We will have to agree to disagree. From my experience it's absolutely easier to get more spin with, at least, a 314-3 shaft using the same cue ball and stroke.

And I'm agreeing with you...not the "Pool Scientist".

EVERY person who has shot with my Becue or my Meucci Pro CF shaft on one of my butts has said the CF shafts produce more spin and "action" (for the same stroke) than wood shafts...even their own cues with wood shafts.

The "Pool Scientist" will keep saying "his testing"...maybe he isn't such a great tester or he isn't the caliber of player that is able to detect a difference.
 
Jeff,

I'm pretty sure you are right about being on the same page. While I might advise other people to do different things I have no intention of giving up my maple or the slipstroke!

Hu

I agree with ‘youse’ guys too! ;)

I think I played so well with my super thin shafts (probably closer to 10 than 11) was that they were effectively super low deflection, and coming from playing mostly on a snooker table the pockets seemed like buckets anyway. So, LD worked for me! Funny thing, I borrowed my cue before I bought it to try it out for a set (with the original fat shaft) and won half the cost of the cue before I bought it... made the decision to buy it pretty easy. :smile:

And happy holidays and Merry Christmas to you Hu too....... and all others here as well.

Td
 
with you on the snooker cue

I agree with ‘youse’ guys too! ;)

I think I played so well with my super thin shafts (probably closer to 10 than 11) was that they were effectively super low deflection, and coming from playing mostly on a snooker table the pockets seemed like buckets anyway. So, LD worked for me! Funny thing, I borrowed my cue before I bought it to try it out for a set (with the original fat shaft) and won half the cost of the cue before I bought it... made the decision to buy it pretty easy. :smile:

And happy holidays and Merry Christmas to you Hu too....... and all others here as well.

Td


I played bar pool with a twelve ounce snooker cue, eleven mm tip. Something else, those house cue ferrules were very light and flexible. That thing was low deflection long before it was in style. I would like to match it side by side with the best carbon fiber now, I believe it would match up great when comparing deflection. Where it would lose a little would be in radial consistency though, a natural quality of one piece wood shafts. A friend was trying to promote his bar and I played for chrome with that stick in there once a week. My wife was glad when I let her throw away the shelf full of chrome awhile later.

The snooker cue needed a snake coffin to tote it in and I got a new moochie for fifty bucks through a friend that got them free. Only reason I went to the Meucci, it had a hinge and fit in a case. It was a bigger pain to learn to shoot with than the snooker cue. That is saying a lot because hitting a mud ball with a very light snooker cue was like hitting a boulder!

Hu
 
none of this matters

I've repeated this over and over in my short time here, but I'll say it again...it is ALL personal preference. Nobody is the same and everyone has their own needs.

However, I actually feel like I can get MORE ACTION sometimes from my traditional 13mm maple Joss shaft than from any of my smaller diameter LD shafts...but hey, I guess that is just me.

Last night I unscrewed my 30" Jacoby Ultra Pro off and put the stock Schon maple shaft on my LTD just to see how it played, and haven't changed back yet because it felt so good (sad, as I love 30" shafts <-- can't wait for my Schmelke to arrive in January as it will be a 60" cue split in the middle with a 12.25mm maple shaft!)
 
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