Using "Center Ball" - is it good advice or a hidden disadvantage?

[CJ Wiley]

Was watching Matlock play banks in Olathe a few yrs back. He made a couple that i would have bet pretty good would not go. I asked Dave later and he said 'Brother, i twisted her in'. He took me aside and explained pretty much just what CJ said. BTW, Dave was DCC banks champ in '05 beating banks legend Brumback.

Yes, David Matlock played all games well, even 3 Cushion Billiards, at my pool room he gambled with Rafael Martinez and ran over him playing that game. He also finished 2nd behind Allen Hopkins at CJ's Billiard Palace in my One Pocket Tournament.....we all know about his bar table game, it was 2nd to none!

Roger Griffis talked me into splitting $700 to pay Tony Fargo to learn his banking system, it opened my eyes to some of the deepest levels of what could be done on a pool table, a perfect geometrical surface with perfect spheres and a cue providing the essential straight line.

I teach what Tony taught me in detail, it took 43 chapters and over an hour to show how to uncover the perfection of the game by aligning consistently and justing moving the TIP TARGET to create any possible angle. (it's on my web site Mastering Pocket Billiards) I practiced what Tony taught me, then went to Baton Rouge less than a month later and beat Amerillo Slim out of 32,000 gambling. at One Pocket. There was rarely a place on the table I couldn't either hang a bank in my pocket or make it and usually punished him severely by running 10-15 balls.

Players go their entire lives and don't realize the possibilities hidden in plane sight on a pool table, once their eyes are opened, the game changes dramatically, the player will never look at the game the same way again!

 

[CJ Wiley]

And yet we know that maximum CB-to-OB spin transfer (and therefore maximum bank shortening) occurs with half of maximum side spin on the CB - much more than you're describing.

Please enlighten us how hitting "the exact center of the cueball" produces side spin.

It seems your talent is so great even the laws of physics can't resist you...

pj
chgo

Even when hitting the center of the cueball it creates some kind of spin or "twist" would be more accurate. I'm not talking about side spin in this case, it's usually TOP SPIN.....if you can shoot a long shot hitting the center and produce a perfect "Knuckle Ball" you are exceptional indeed!

Your statement about the "CB-OB transfer being half of maximum side spin" is demonstratively false, I can hold a bank really well when the balls are 6 inches apart, it wouldn't be possible for me to spin the ball "half of maximum" I haven't measured it but my instinct is to TWIST the cueball, so it probably doesn't even spin around once (which we call "twisting" when speaking in terms of banking a pool ball).

The Game is the Teacher

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I'm not talking about side spin in this case, it's usually TOP SPIN....

Oh, I misunderstood you. That I agree with.

Your statement about the "CB-OB transfer being half of maximum side spin" is demonstratively false,

Tell it to the real scientists; they're the ones who say so. - but my experience agrees with it. And the shot you describe is the perfect example of when it's most true: a full hit with stun transfers more CB>OB spin the more spin you apply, up to 1/2 maximum. You can shorten a bank with less than maximum transferred spin, but more is available. The good news: that means there's a range of bank shortening possible.

Interesting factoid: I think the maximum transfer rate of CB spin to the OB is about 1/3, so 1/2 of maximum CB spin x 1/3 = 1/6 of maximum CB spin, equivalent to 3/32" tip offset - meaning the maximum amount of CB/OB spin transfer is a "touch". A little goes a long way in banks.

pj
chgo

 

[CJ Wiley]

Oh, I misunderstood you. That I agree with.

Tell it to the real scientists; they're the ones who say so. - but my experience agrees with it. And the shot you describe is the perfect example of when it's most true: a full hit with stun transfers more CB>OB spin the more spin you apply, up to 1/2 maximum. You can shorten a bank with less than maximum transferred spin, but more is available. The good news: that means there's a range of bank shortening possible.

Interesting factoid: I think the maximum transfer rate of CB spin to the OB is about 1/3, so 1/2 of maximum CB spin x 1/3 = 1/6 of maximum CB spin, equivalent to 3/32" tip offset - so the maximum amount of CB/OB spin transfer is a "touch". A little goes a long way in banks.

pj
chgo

So someone that's done tens of thousands of experiments on a pool table and reached the highest possible levels of performance isn't a "real scientist" lol - and you, who is too embarrassed to show his game to the public, even on a You Tube video is an expert?

Wow, I'm sure you can convince a complete sucker of this, but there are too many sharp, seasoned players on this site to hustle with that level of nonsense.

I would say "good try" but it really wasn't. Until you will show someone you can make even the simplest bank I'd suggest not embarrassing yourself further with making statements like this "Interesting factoid: I think the maximum transfer rate of CB spin to the OB is about 1/3, so 1/2 of maximum CB spin x 1/3 = 1/6 of maximum CB spin, equivalent to 3/32" tip offset - so the maximum amount of CB/OB spin transfer"

That may actually make some of the readers that are real pool players laugh out loud.

 

[CJ Wiley]

I would think that aiming center pocket is the most error tolerant zone.

No, it's most "tolerant" to aim at the inside of the pocket and hit the cueball in such a way that it cuts the ball for sure slightly. This gives you a much larger margin of error. Golfers use this to align to the right side of the green or fairway and DRAW the golf ball.....if it doesn't DRAW it goes to the right side, if it Draws slightly it will favor the Center and if it Draws too much it will still hit the left side of the green or fairway.

Golfers should be familiar with what I'm using as an analogy, it's also true with Tennis Players, Baseball Pitchers, they always want to create a zone and not try to hit or throw the ball perfectly straight. If you want to play pool your best it's wise to learn from what works for professionals of several different games/sports, at the highest levels there is always a common denominator!

The Game is the Teacher

 

[Patrick Johnson]

So someone that's done tens of thousands of experiments on a pool table and reached the highest possible levels of performance isn't a "real scientist" lol

Actually, I was talking about myself not being the real scientist. lol

I'd suggest not embarrassing yourself further with making statements like this "Interesting factoid: I think the maximum transfer rate of CB spin to the OB is about 1/3, so 1/2 of maximum CB spin x 1/3 = 1/6 of maximum CB spin, equivalent to 3/32" tip offset - so the maximum amount of CB/OB spin transfer"

It's just some innocent math humor, CJ - nothing to get exercised about.

pj <- language barrier
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...if it doesn't DRAW it goes to the right side, if it Draws slightly it will favor the Center and if it Draws too much it will still hit the left side of the green or fairway.

So with TOI you hit the center, left or right parts of the pocket. Funny, that's exactly what happens when I try to hit center pocket with center ball.

pj <- obviously over my head
chgo

 

[one stroke]

Are we talking dead center ball or high or low , dead center is a skid shot so that has a different dynamic,all together, I have used straight hi or low center ball for decades and allow for contact induced throw depending on cut angle , but I would say the pct that the shots that I can use it on and get the best shape are maybe 30pct that's a guess it's not that I find center ball hard it's that the shot dictates what English or not is needed , , as for golf plenty hit a straight ball including the man who many consider the best ball striker to ever hit a ball Mo Norman and now big boomer Bryson DeChambeau , he just booms it over the dog legs where others have to shape shots countless golfers hit a straight ball with scoring irons in there hands today as the balls and equipment are much better

1

 

[CJ Wiley]

Are we talking dead center ball or high or low , dead center is a skid shot so that has a different dynamic,all together, I have used straight hi or low center ball for decades and allow for contact induced throw depending on cut angle , but I would say the pct that the shots that I can use it on and get the best shape are maybe 30pct that's a guess it's not that I find center ball hard it's that the shot dictates what English or not is needed , , as for golf plenty hit a straight ball including the man who many consider the best ball striker to ever hit a ball Mo Norman and now big boomer Bryson DeChambeau , he just booms it over the dog legs where others have to shape shots countless golfers hit a straight ball with scoring irons in there hands today as the balls and equipment are much better

1

So the "countless golfers" hit the golf ball exactly straight with no draw or fade? Maybe within a limited distance, but outside of 150 yards they all draw or fade the ball slightly. There's reasons for this, mostly because of how the human body has been designed, there is a plane to the swing and it's not possible for the plane not have any angle. This angle produces curvature to the shot, which is actually an advantage as long as the golfer intentionally uses it to create zones. This is also true with pool, the human body was not designed to play pool so there are some fundamental necessities to turn the human body into a Pool Playing Machine.

 

[CJ Wiley]

So with TOI you hit the center, left or right parts of the pocket. Funny, that's exactly what happens when I try to hit center pocket with center ball.

pj <- obviously over my head
chgo

Yes, it's obviously over you head. You are stuck on old programming, empty your cup Grasshopper, or your "brain tea" will stay full and not allow any new tea (knowledge) into your cup (mind).

 

[ribdoner]

That's true, and I'll be glad to clarify, it is slang and I could have been more clear, it's a term generally used in bank pool.

When I say SPIN my definition is the cue ball turning one rotation or more, when I say TWIST, it's referring to the cue ball rotating less than one rotation. You've probable heard players say "I twisted that bank to shorten it up," another way of saying "holding a bank" - when I TWIST the cue ball it has more of an effect of the object ball, when I SPIN the cue ball it doesn't, I've never seen great bank pool players spin the cueball to hold a bank, they "twist if in".

When I use 'The Touch of Inside' the cue ball twists slightly, and that puts what I call "pocket acceptance spin" on the object ball which does encourage the shots that hit the rail coming in to go better than using a touch of outside.

A common misunderstanding about 'The Touch of Inside' is it's Inside English and it is not, although it does have a slight "twist" - it's virtually impossible to his a longer shot without some kind of spin, even when hitting the exact center of the cueball.

Hi CJ,

THANKS for your contribution!!

is "twist" a result of back hand english?

 

[CJ Wiley]

Hi CJ,

THANKS for your contribution!!

is "twist" a result of back hand english?

I don't agree with the "backhand English" that people talk about, it's not that I don't pivot the cue, it's that I do it with my body from the FEET UP. When you just pivot your back hand it doesn't also change your visual perception, so I'd suggest doing the pivoting with your body, I show how to do this on my TIP BANKING SECRETS video section on my website.

You can Twist the banks by pivoting or a parallel shift, both will do the trick.

 

[CJ Wiley]

When I learned the Touch of Inside technique it was from watching top road players and people would say "he's got the cue ball on a string" it appeared to be! These players had dynamic styles like Vernon Elliot, Jerry Brock, Bobby Leggs, Matlock, and Omaha John, the cue ball seemed to float from position to position.

I started traveling across the country with Omaha John and watched him closely to see if I could tell what he was doing. I couldn't......but I knew the after-contact-reaction of the cueball and started imitating subconsciously, trying to "float" the cueball {as he called it}.
After John and I were done with our trip I ended up in Tampa Florida at a pool room owned by Bill Ammadeo (spelling?) who was a great player 20 years prior. He saw me practicing and came over to the table and ask he could show me something.

I agreed and he set up a very thin cue to the side pocket and ask me to cut it in. I tried and had trouble because it was very thin, had to hit the very edge of the object ball. He stopped me after a couple attempts and suggested I cue the ball sightly to the right of center (the cut angle was to the right) so I tried and feathered the ball beautifully into the center of the side pocket.

That shot opened my eyes to something significant, the object ball always cuts thinner when we use just a "Touch" of inside.....so why not use it on all shots and aim all shots to the inside of the pocket? Wouldn't that create 3 parts to the pocket, the inside, center and outside? Wouldn't that give me a bigger pocket zone and, in effect, a bigger pocket?

Yes, indeed, I had figured out the key to the road player style of play, the only thing left was to figure out the speed of the ideal shot, Aiming, and how to play position, which ended up being one of the strengths of not having any spin after contacting the object ball - this creates a consistent, more predictable path of the cueball, especially off rails.

 

[The_JV]

I agreed and he set up a very thin cue to the side pocket and ask me to cut it in. I tried and had trouble because it was very thin, had to hit the very edge of the object ball. He stopped me after a couple attempts and suggested I cue the ball sightly to the right of center (the cut angle was to the right) so I tried and feathered the ball beautifully into the center of the side pocket.

Ok, finally something I can equate to my own game....lol

This is how I manage extreme cuts as well. Aim thick and squirt to thin contact or aim to miss and squirt it back into the OB. The choice is made based on the require CB path to the next shot. I guess I could call this method the "Touch of Whatever". However for me, this has nothing to with creating zones in the pocket, or "helping spin" (I've had this "helping spin" term thrown at me a few times lately and it drives me nuts). My eyes are just going to hell and I can't see the edge of the ball like I used to....lol.

Multi-quoting is kinda annoying now, so hopefully you'll recall your comment about your stroke forcing the CB off the table slightly after contact.... I was playing in tournament yesterday and had a snooker coach approach me after he watched one of my matches. We got into a discussion about fundamentals and how some pool players have strokes that rely on timing. These are the players that have "swoopy" strokes. The other pitfall (in my opinion) are players that shoot down on the CB. This as we hopefully all know, produces a CB jump, and this flight and subsequent bounces are dependent on the applied force. If the ball is in the air at the OB point of contact this will alter your cut angle. It will also alter the angle of CB reflection after contact. The only time I ever, ever, shoot down on the CB is when I'm purposely attempting to increase the CB reflection when standard stun won't get it done.

 

[7stud]

No, it's most "tolerant" to aim at the inside of the pocket and hit the cueball in such a way that it cuts the ball for sure slightly. This gives you a much larger margin of error.

When you aim your cue tip at the center of the cue ball, and you aim the object ball at the center of the pocket, and you miss the cue ball slightly to the right of center, the object ball will go into one side of the pocket, and if you miss the cue ball slightly to the left of center, the object ball will go into the other side of the pocket. If you hit the cue ball exactly in the center, the object ball will go into the center of the pocket.

When you aim your cue tip at the TOI spot on the cue ball, and you aim the object ball barely inside the pocket, and you miss slightly and hit the cue ball in the center, the object ball will go into the side of the pocket. If you miss the cue ball slightly to the other side of TOI, then the cue ball will go into the other side of the pocket. If you hit the cue ball exactly at TOI, the object ball will go into the center of the pocket.

In both cases, if you hit the cue ball exactly where you are aiming, the object ball will go into the center of the pocket. And, in both cases, if you miss slightly to the right or the left of your aim spot on the cue ball, the object ball will go into the side of the pocket. What's the difference? Where is the greater margin of error with TOI?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

When you aim your cue tip at the center of the cue ball, and you aim the object ball at the center of the pocket, and you miss the cue ball slightly to the right of center, the object ball will go into one side of the pocket, and if you miss the cue ball slightly to the left of center, the object ball will go into the other side of the pocket. If you hit the cue ball exactly in the center, the object ball will go in the center of the pocket.

When you aim your cue tip at the TOI spot on the cue ball, and you aim the object ball at the inside of the pocket, and you miss slightly and hit the cue ball in the center, the object ball will go into the side of the pocket. If you miss the cue ball slightly to the right of TOI, then the cue ball will go into the other side of the pocket. If you hit the cue ball exactly at TOI, the object ball will go into the center of the pocket.

In both cases, if you hit the cue ball exactly where you are aiming, the object ball will go into the center of the pocket. And, in both cases, if you miss slightly to the right or the left of your aim spot on the cue ball, the object ball will go in the side of the pocket. What's the difference? Where is the greater margin of error with TOI?

You're right (as I've been saying for years), but he clearly doesn't understand. I guess it's not that easy to visualize...

pj
chgo

 

[CJ Wiley]

Ok, finally something I can equate to my own game....lol

This is how I manage extreme cuts as well. Aim thick and squirt to thin contact or aim to miss and squirt it back into the OB. The choice is made based on the require CB path to the next shot. I guess I could call this method the "Touch of Whatever". However for me, this has nothing to with creating zones in the pocket, or "helping spin" (I've had this "helping spin" term thrown at me a few times lately and it drives me nuts). My eyes are just going to hell and I can't see the edge of the ball like I used to....lol.

Multi-quoting is kinda annoying now, so hopefully you'll recall your comment about your stroke forcing the CB off the table slightly after contact.... I was playing in tournament yesterday and had a snooker coach approach me after he watched one of my matches. We got into a discussion about fundamentals and how some pool players have strokes that rely on timing. These are the players that have "swoopy" strokes. The other pitfall (in my opinion) are players that shoot down on the CB. This as we hopefully all know, produces a CB jump, and this flight and subsequent bounces are dependent on the applied force. If the ball is in the air at the OB point of contact this will alter your cut angle. It will also alter the angle of CB reflection after contact. The only time I ever, ever, shoot down on the CB is when I'm purposely attempting to increase the CB reflection when standard stun won't get it done.

Yes, cutting the ball thin with the Touch of Inside is more accurate from my experience for a few reasons.

When a player has an angle to their cue like most, if not all champions, and they reach the highest level of acceleration precisely at contact the cue ball with leave the table's surface a fraction. This reduces the deflection, it doesn't add to it.

Sounds like you want to work on your tempo, once your tempo is ideal, this process naturally happens and your shots will travel straighter no matter if you favor the inside or outside of Center. The most effective players will have a piercing trajectory on their shots.

When slow rolling shots the cue ball won't come off the surface, but it will still travel on a better line when you hit it with more acceleration and limit the follow-through. When a player extends the follow-through they may feel like it goes straighter, but it generally leads to "steering" the ball.

Play well, the Game is the Teacher

When you aim your cue tip at the center of the cue ball, and you aim the object ball at the center of the pocket, and you miss the cue ball slightly to the right of center, the object ball will go into one side of the pocket, and if you miss the cue ball slightly to the left of center, the object ball will go into the other side of the pocket. If you hit the cue ball exactly in the center, the object ball will go into the center of the pocket.

When you aim your cue tip at the TOI spot on the cue ball, and you aim the object ball at the inside of the pocket, and you miss slightly and hit the cue ball in the center, the object ball will go into the side of the pocket. If you miss the cue ball slightly to the other side of TOI, then the cue ball will go into the other side of the pocket. If you hit the cue ball exactly at TOI, the object ball will go into the center of the pocket.

In both cases, if you hit the cue ball exactly where you are aiming, the object ball will go into the center of the pocket. And, in both cases, if you miss slightly to the right or the left of your aim spot on the cue ball, the object ball will go into the side of the pocket. What's the difference? Where is the greater margin of error with TOI?

 

[CJ Wiley]

When you aim your cue tip at the center of the cue ball, and you aim the object ball at the center of the pocket, and you miss the cue ball slightly to the right of center, the object ball will go into one side of the pocket, and if you miss the cue ball slightly to the left of center, the object ball will go into the other side of the pocket. If you hit the cue ball exactly in the center, the object ball will go into the center of the pocket.

When you aim your cue tip at the TOI spot on the cue ball, and you aim the object ball at the inside of the pocket, and you miss slightly and hit the cue ball in the center, the object ball will go into the side of the pocket. If you miss the cue ball slightly to the other side of TOI, then the cue ball will go into the other side of the pocket. If you hit the cue ball exactly at TOI, the object ball will go into the center of the pocket.

In both cases, if you hit the cue ball exactly where you are aiming, the object ball will go into the center of the pocket. And, in both cases, if you miss slightly to the right or the left of your aim spot on the cue ball, the object ball will go into the side of the pocket. What's the difference? Where is the greater margin of error with TOI?

The difference isn't in the distance of the margin of error, it's that when the player aims at the center, the margin of error is on either side, when a player intentionally over-cuts the ball slightly to the inside of the pocket ALL the margin of error is on ONE SIDE. This is the same thing professional golfers do when they curse the golf ball slightly left or right, it allows them to align to one side of the fairway or green (in pool it's the pocket) and they have ALL their margin of error to ONE SIDE of the green or fairway.

Is someone isn't a golfer they may not understand the analogy, however, the concept is easy to see once you're willing to look at the game from a different perspective. Champion players DO NOT see the game the same as lower level players, this is a fact, my desire is to show how we perceive the game so you can do it too. If someone wants to hold on to their present belief and perceptions they will not be able to understand anything new. This is true in all aspects of life, to receive something new we must be willing to cast away what is old.

The Game is the Teacher

 

[Patrick Johnson]

The difference isn't in the distance of the margin of error, it's that when the player aims at the center, the margin of error is on either side, when a player intentionally over-cuts the ball slightly to the inside of the pocket ALL the margin of error is on ONE SIDE.

Sorry to disagree again, but "intentionally overcutting" as you describe it is exactly the same thing as adding a touch of side and adjusting the cue angle for squirt - you're just describing/visualizing it differently. Thinking of it like that might help you personally, but it doesn't really limit errors to one side or reduce the margin for error.

I admire the creativity of the idea...

pj
chgo

 

[The_JV]

When a player has an angle to their cue like most, if not all champions, and they reach the highest level of acceleration precisely at contact the cue ball with leave the table's surface a fraction. This reduces the deflection, it doesn't add to it.

Sounds like you want to work on your tempo, once your tempo is ideal, this process naturally happens and your shots will travel straighter no matter if you favor the inside or outside of Center. The most effective players will have a piercing trajectory on their shots.

When slow rolling shots the cue ball won't come off the surface, but it will still travel on a better line when you hit it with more acceleration and limit the follow-through. When a player extends the follow-through they may feel like it goes straighter, but it generally leads to "steering" the ball.

Hopping the ball by shooting down on it reduces deflection...? Do you mean squirt...? Not sure how the ball hopping does anything positive. Other than what I described with increasing angle of relfection.

Maybe I do have a tempo problem. I've never had anyone who has seen my game make such a suggestion. That doesn't mean what you're saying isn't a possibility. Curious how you can have such an opinion without seeing my stroke.

The line of a center ball shot is not determined by the acceleration, velocity, tempo or follow through of your stroke. This is assuming you don't strike down on the ball and have a level and straight stroke. I'm beginning to think your comments are based on what I consider a sloppy stroke. Typical of a "pool player". That would explain a lot of your suggestions.