Using "Center Ball" - is it good advice or a hidden disadvantage?

[CJ Wiley]

Wow great thread. Really found it interesting. Some things that I have never comtemplated. I remember watching jose parica on youtube and seeing him put a slight bit of english on his shots and wondering why.

You haven't seen nothing yet! Wait til I show how to use a Metronome to train yourself to have perfect tempo. Every musician has to have a great understanding of tempo and many have used a Metronome. I used to play classical piano contests and my teacher was a firm believer in practicing with a Metronome to make sure my tempo was as good as possible. It works like a charm with the pool stroke too....it's priceless!

 

[Patrick Johnson]

The amount of force of squirt remains the same whether in deep space or playing on shag carpet.

And so does it’s instantaneous direction. That doesn’t “accumulate” over time as you and CJ seem to think.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...few people know that the defection rate changes due to the cloth.

It’s easy to test.

If you really want to know...

pj
chgo

 

[ShootingArts]

And so does it’s instantaneous direction. That doesn’t “accumulate” over time as you and CJ seem to think.

pj
chgo

The force of squirt is minor compared to the primary force of impact propelling the cue ball forward until we reach the miscue limit. You readily accept that this forward force can be modified by the effect of the cloth on the cue ball, it is truly a mystery to me why you deny that the force of squirt can be modified also.

Idle curiosity, suppose the table was tilted twenty degrees right to left. Ignoring the difficulty keeping the balls in place until shot, would the inclined plane affect squirt distance?

Hu

 

[Patrick Johnson]

The force of squirt is minor compared to the primary force of impact propelling the cue ball forward

There aren't two forces acting on the cue ball, only one. We think of it as being composed of a "forward" force and a slightly angled "squirt" force, but the physical reality is that it's only one force in a single direction - the direction of the cue ball's travel. If we hit the ball in that direction with a non-squirt cue the result would be the same - and I hope you can see that cloth friction wouldn't affect the cue ball's direction, only its speed.

pj
chgo

 

[CJ Wiley]

It's funny to watch how players that don't play well talk about physics and geometry and the players like Dennis Orcollo talk on a level of Quantum Physics and Cosmic, or Sacred Geometry.

The human mind at the subconscious level is like an incredibly sophisticated quantum computer, similar to the D Wave Quantum Computer, however, at the conscious level our minds can't even grasp what it's like to play pool at the highest level.

My original mentor Dr. George Merkl used to talk on a level that was extraordinary for his time, now technology has caught up and he was obviously beyond his time with his understanding of the ancient Sumerian manuscripts. Technology at the highest level is almost indistinguishable from magic.....so is Dennis, Shane and Fuller when they hit the zone competing at pocket billiards, it's beyond incredible!

 

[Island Drive]

CJ interesting thread, comments, and I didn't read em all. During my prime 90-91 then my divorce I finally was Beginning to understand balls, collisions, cloth, dirt, humidity and all the influences they have upon play, and POSITON for your next shot according to conditions of play....no different than the pros talking about play conditions at the Masters in Augusta. The one thing that I've learned, regardless of equipment, and the changes of cues sticks (which is quite dramatic) is this. ""when is Whitey to start and begin to roll naturally after being struck''?

Understanding how and when that takes place....

Is one of the 'keys' to understanding the game.....Reality.

 

[DTL]

Here's a go-by.

 

[ShootingArts]

There aren't two forces acting on the cue ball, only one. We think of it as being composed of a "forward" force and a slightly angled "squirt" force, but the physical reality is that it's only one force in a single direction - the direction of the cue ball's travel. If we hit the ball in that direction with a non-squirt cue the result would be the same - and I hope you can see that cloth friction wouldn't affect the cue ball's direction, only its speed.

pj
chgo

So let's be clear, you are now saying that gravity doesn't work on a cue ball??? I haven't noticed any nets over the table. I can see how you can ignore little things like friction when you ignore gravity. I ignored gravity as a small child, since then I have developed a wholesome respect for it!

Hu

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...you are now saying that gravity doesn't work on a cue ball???

I guess that means we're done making sense.

pj
chgo

 

[CJ Wiley]

Here's a go-by.

Trying to calculate all these variables is draining on your subconscious, it's best to make things as simple as possible.

I suggest trying to align the same, aim the same, hit the same side of the cue ball, stand the same relative to the shot line, and go down on the shot the same using your hips instead of the upper body to make sure your body positions are consistent.

Once I show players how this is done, {and they put in the time to practice} the results are guaranteed. The game of pocket billiards is not diffictult when we know and understand the components of consistency and how to achieve it the most effective way.

 

[ShootingArts]

I guess that means we're done making sense.

pj
chgo

Actually we were done when you tried to argue that friction wasn't a factor. Gravity is a factor also since it affects rolling or sliding resistance.

Hu

 

[Gunn_Slinger]

Yea. Center ball players. What do they know, like Buddy Hall in the 70' ( basically unbeatable ) , Cole Dixon , beat everyone he played at Beenies ( spotted a lot of players ) , Baltimore Buddy Dennis in the 70' ( top 5 bar table players in the country ! ) , Yea what did they know !!!!

 

[CJ Wiley]

Yea. Center ball players. What do they know, like Buddy Hall in the 70' ( basically unbeatable ) , Cole Dixon , beat everyone he played at Beenies ( spotted a lot of players ) , Baltimore Buddy Dennis in the 70' ( top 5 bar table players in the country ! ) , Yea what did they know !!!!

I practiced a lot when I was in my late teens with Buddy, he never hit the middle of the cueball.

We were training in Tampa at Baker's Billiards one day, I had just got a new tip and was shaping it. I ask Buddy "should I shape it like a dime or a nickel?" Buddy just grinned and said "it don't matter CJ, you play the game with the edge of the tip, not the center".

Yeah, if you really watch all those guys, they all have an downward angle to the cue so the can use the top edge of the tip. And like Dennis Orcollo said when ask how much he uses center ball, he said "never, I always use English".....which he told me when playing on new cloth with big pockets he uses a touch of outside, and when playing on worn cloth with tight pockets he uses a Touch of Inside.....I coined the phrase "A Touch of Inside" from how Mike Lebon described how Efren played.

The Game is the Teacher

 

[The_JV]

I practiced a lot when I was in my late teens with Buddy, he never hit the middle of the cueball.

We were training in Tampa at Baker's Billiards one day, I had just got a new tip and was shaping it. I ask Buddy "should I shape it like a dime or a nickel?" Buddy just grinned and said "it don't matter CJ, you play the game with the edge of the tip, not the center".

Yeah, if you really watch all those guys, they all have an downward angle to the cue so the can use the top edge of the tip. And like Dennis Orcollo said when ask how much he uses center ball, he said "never, I always use English".....which he told me when playing on new cloth with big pockets he uses a touch of outside, and when playing on worn cloth with tight pockets he uses a Touch of Inside.....I coined the phrase "A Touch of Inside" from how Mike Lebon described how Efren played.

The Game is the Teacher

For what it's worth... I hardly ever hit center ball, and only do so when required. That said, preliminary aim starts off with center ball and is adjusted based on the spin I will apply. The application of spin generally has nothing to do with making the shot, (unless throw is required), but entirely what needs to happen to the CB to get to the next ball.

 

[lfigueroa]

It's funny to watch how players that don't play well talk about physics and geometry and the players like Dennis Orcollo talk on a level of Quantum Physics and Cosmic, or Sacred Geometry.

The human mind at the subconscious level is like an incredibly sophisticated quantum computer, similar to the D Wave Quantum Computer, however, at the conscious level our minds can't even grasp what it's like to play pool at the highest level.

My original mentor Dr. George Merkl used to talk on a level that was extraordinary for his time, now technology has caught up and he was obviously beyond his time with his understanding of the ancient Sumerian manuscripts. Technology at the highest level is almost indistinguishable from magic.....so is Dennis, Shane and Fuller when they hit the zone competing at pocket billiards, it's beyond incredible!

Sacred geometry -- getting a little deep.

You throw out a lot of high falutin words and terms (Sumerian manuscripts?! lol) which have little relation to what is being discussed here, which basically comes down to poking balls around a flat surface with a stick. I guess alluding to (but never connecting) all the high brow concepts you throw out bamboozles the fools... but not everyone.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Gunn_Slinger]

I practiced a lot when I was in my late teens with Buddy, he never hit the middle of the cueball.

We were training in Tampa at Baker's Billiards one day, I had just got a new tip and was shaping it. I ask Buddy "should I shape it like a dime or a nickel?" Buddy just grinned and said "it don't matter CJ, you play the game with the edge of the tip, not the center".

Yeah, if you really watch all those guys, they all have an downward angle to the cue so the can use the top edge of the tip. And like Dennis Orcollo said when ask how much he uses center ball, he said "never, I always use English".....which he told me when playing on new cloth with big pockets he uses a touch of outside, and when playing on worn cloth with tight pockets he uses a Touch of Inside.....I coined the phrase "A Touch of Inside" from how Mike Lebon described how Efren played.

The Game is the Teacher

 

[Gunn_Slinger]

In the 70's , I traveled with Buddy and his road partner 'Gus The Greek'. When did you come to the washington area ?? He and I were in Hagerstown Md in 78'. I never saw you. AND, Buddy was a 'center ball player ( center ball is high,low and center and everything in between on the center axis) ! AND I was talking about his bar table game which was much better than his big table game !

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Sacred geometry -- getting a little deep.

I'd say about knee deep. How does anybody take this nonsense seriously?

pj
chgo

 

[straightline]

You haven't seen nothing yet! Wait til I show how to use a Metronome to train yourself to have perfect tempo. Every musician has to have a great understanding of tempo and many have used a Metronome. I used to play classical piano contests and my teacher was a firm believer in practicing with a Metronome to make sure my tempo was as good as possible. It works like a charm with the pool stroke too....it's priceless!

I traded a couple posts with 007 ond he's had training (which evidently he hated) but anyway I was wondering how you compare the flow of prepared performance ala piano to the improvisatory flow of a pool session? Did you ever wish you could just keep stacking racks?