Using "Center Ball" - is it good advice or a hidden disadvantage?

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
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Sorry to disagree again, but "intentionally overcutting" as you describe it is exactly the same thing as adding a touch of side and adjusting the cue angle for squirt - you're just describing/visualizing it differently. Thinking of it like that might help you personally, but it doesn't really limit errors to one side or reduce the margin for error.

I admire the creativity of the idea...

pj
chgo
Yes, the way champions perceive the game certainly isn't for everyone. It's satisfying to see players that want to learn these techniques suddenly have the light go on, it changes the way they perceive the game forever. The result is more creativity, a deeper understanding and congruent confidence because their connection to the game is increased substantially.

I showed one of my students how all these components fit together into the overall playing system and it visibly shocked him when he started hitting the center of the pocket without aiming like he did before. He made one, jumped up and said, slightly freaked out "this is come kind of strange magic!!'

He calmed down when I told him magic doesn't exist except in people's minds, that the subconscious was so powerful when we do learn advanced systems, and techniques it appears to be magical to the observer, but it's just advanced knowledge......that's why they call Efren "The Magician," not because he actually performs magic, because his knowledge it at a level that mystifies regular players.

There are many levels to mastering the game of pool, and one thing is for sure, if you think the answers are obvious it's a sign you have much left to learn. Pool players will always accelerate their learning curve when the have a passion for learning, every shot gives them something to learn, even if they don't make the ball. I have always learned more from losses and missed shots than victories and shots that hit the geometric center!

The Game is the Teacher
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
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Silver Member
Hopping the ball by shooting down on it reduces deflection...? Do you mean squirt...? Not sure how the ball hopping does anything positive. Other than what I described with increasing angle of relfection.

Maybe I do have a tempo problem. I've never had anyone who has seen my game make such a suggestion. That doesn't mean what you're saying isn't a possibility. Curious how you can have such an opinion without seeing my stroke.

The line of a center ball shot is not determined by the acceleration, velocity, tempo or follow through of your stroke. This is assuming you don't strike down on the ball and have a level and straight stroke. I'm beginning to think your comments are based on what I consider a sloppy stroke. Typical of a "pool player". That would explain a lot of your suggestions.
You won't see the best players in the world use a level cue very often. Watch Shane VanB, Dennis Orcollo, Francisco Bustemente, Earl Strickland etc and notice they appear to be cuing the bottom of the cueball on most of their shots. It's not possible to cue the ball that low and have a level cue, the cue would have to be on the surface of the table and that's not possible because of the rails (and you'd scoop the ball anyway).

The reason it's best to get the cue ball to leave the table slightly is because of the FRICTION of the cloth, it amplifies the deflection on off center hits. When I shoot a regular shot the cueball will jump a dime if I want it to, ordinarily it leaves the table minutely and an observer could not see it happen. For maximum deflection you want to have a level cue, and extend your follow through hitting the cue ball left or right of the center.....I do this intentionally of some shots, but don't suggest players use this for the foundation of their stroke and game.

Unless you are a champion player you could improve your tempo, we all have to work on either improving or maintaining great tempo. I have a way to teach players what the ideal tempo is, but it takes 30 minutes shooting a particular shot and the experience is intense...it has to be to change poor tempo patterns developed over years of playing, bad habits are challenging to break quickly and effectively.

The Game is the Teacher
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
The reason it's best to get the cue ball to leave the table slightly is because of the FRICTION of the cloth, it amplifies the deflection on off center hits.
With an elevated cue, you're most likely seeing increased swerve, which looks like less squirt. Cloth friction doesn't affect squirt.

pj
chgo
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
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Silver Member
With an elevated cue, you're most likely seeing increased swerve, which looks like less squirt. Cloth friction doesn't affect squirt.

pj
chgo
The elevation isn't enough to cause swerve, it enables the player to play the game with the edge of the tip, not the center. Buddy Hall told me about this many years ago, it's the difference between hitting something flat with your fist, and using you first two knuckles like martial artists break boards with.....professionals move the cue ball around effortlessly by using the edge of the tip, it's slight, and very effective!

And yes, cloth has friction, it's not like ice or air that has virtually none.
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
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Silver Member
I didn't say it doesn't have friction - I said it doesn't affect squirt.

pj <- air friction destroys meteors
chgo
Friction amplifies squirt/deflection.....it also allows swerve. Try swerving one on ice and see what happens. lol
 

marikian

AzB Gold Member
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You won't see the best players in the world use a level cue very often. Watch Shane VanB, Dennis Orcollo, Francisco Bustemente, Earl Strickland etc and notice they appear to be cuing the bottom of the cueball on most of their shots. It's not possible to cue the ball that low and have a level cue, the cue would have to be on the surface of the table and that's not possible because of the rails (and you'd scoop the ball anyway).

The reason it's best to get the cue ball to leave the table slightly is because of the FRICTION of the cloth, it amplifies the deflection on off center hits. When I shoot a regular shot the cueball will jump a dime if I want it to, ordinarily it leaves the table minutely and an observer could not see it happen. For maximum deflection you want to have a level cue, and extend your follow through hitting the cue ball left or right of the center.....I do this intentionally of some shots, but don't suggest players use this for the foundation of their stroke and game.

Unless you are a champion player you could improve your tempo, we all have to work on either improving or maintaining great tempo. I have a way to teach players what the ideal tempo is, but it takes 30 minutes shooting a particular shot and the experience is intense...it has to be to change poor tempo patterns developed over years of playing, bad habits are challenging to break quickly and effectively.

The Game is the Teacher
CJ is the tempo drill on the website of not can you share what it is?
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
[Cloth] Friction amplifies squirt/deflection.....
Nope - has no effect on it.

Squirt is simply the normal forward motion of the cue ball. The fact that it’s in a slightly different direction than the cue is pointed doesn’t change anything.

[Cloth friction] also allows swerve. Try swerving one on ice and see what happens. lol
Yes, but swerve reduces, not amplifies, the effect of squirt.

I guess these aren’t simple dynamics to keep straight, even for a champion.

pj
chgo
 
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ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
Friction amplifies squirt/deflection.....it also allows swerve. Try swerving one on ice and see what happens. lol
We need to get a few little fellers to get on the pool table with brooms. We can cross pool with knurling and maybe guide the balls into the pockets!

Hu
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
CJ is the tempo drill on the website of not can you share what it is?
I tried to explain it in writing in the PM you sent me but didn't realize how challenging that is. Hopefully you were able to figure it out, it took me a few years. Some of these techniques are not complicated, although it's much easier for me to explain on a video, with a cue and table.

There's a martial arts master in Dallas I was training who was having trouble with his tempo. He said people told him his tempo wasn't good but when he ask them how to make it better they didn't know. One day we went through the tempo perfection drill for 30 minutes and afterwords I ask him what he thought?!?

He stood on the other side of the table with his hand over his mouth......I ask him what was the matter and he said "I'm feeling giddy right now, haven't felt that way since I was a kid!" LoL - he finally had his tempo and was like a fat kid in a cake store.......priceless!
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
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Silver Member
Nope - has no effect on it.

Squirt is simply the normal forward motion of the cue ball. The fact that it’s in a slightly different direction than the cue is pointed doesn’t change anything.


Yes, but swerve reduces, not amplifies, the effect of squirt.

I guess these aren’t simple dynamics to keep straight, even for a champion.

pj
chgo
I'll respect your opinion that cloth has no effect of the deflection rate, however, I do to ask "How do you know?"

How I know that it does is when I made the switch from rubber backed cloth to Simonis the deflection rate DID alter slightly, I had to make some slight changes to accommodate the difference. Even when the cloth gets worn compared to when it's new there's a slight difference.

When Dennis Orcollo (arguably one of the best shot makers in the world) was ask how he adjusted from new cloth with bigger pockets to worn cloth with smaller pockets what does he do?

He replied "on new cloth with bigger pockets I use a touch of outside and on worn cloth with smaller pockets I use a touch of inside for my primary shot" - I understand why he does this because my forte was always worn cloth with smaller pockets, and there's several reasons for this, one being the change in the deflection rate.

Saying the cloth has no effect on the deflection/squirt is interesting, but, from my experience it is not true.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
I'll respect your opinion that cloth has no effect of the deflection rate, however, I do to ask "How do you know?"
It's pretty simple physics. The only way surface friction can make the cue ball change direction is if the ball has "masse" spin - spin about its horizontal axis of travel. That's what swerve is - a small amount of masse spin caused by hitting off center with a non-level cue. If you visualize that carefully you can see that it always swerves the CB in the direction opposite squirt, reducing squirt's effect.

So cloth friction can't increase squirt; it can only (indirectly) reduce its effect. Whatever you're seeing must have another explanation - maybe reduced swerve due to lower surface friction? Shooting with side spin on ice would look like more squirt, but it would really be less swerve. Squirt minus swerve = "effective squirt", which can be affected by cloth friction - so in a sense you're not wrong, but the devil's in the details.

pj
chgo
 
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CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
It's pretty simple physics. The only way surface friction can make the cue ball change direction is if the ball has "masse" spin - spin about its horizontal axis of travel. That's what swerve is - a small amount of masse spin caused by hitting off center with a non-level cue. If you visualize that carefully you can see that it always swerves the CB in the direction opposite squirt, reducing squirt's effect.

So cloth friction can't increase squirt; it can only (indirectly) reduce its effect. Whatever you're seeing must have another explanation - maybe reduced swerve due to lower surface friction? Shooting with side spin on ice would look like more squirt, but it would really be less swerve. Squirt minus swerve = "effective squirt", which can be affected by cloth friction - so in a sense you're not wrong, but the devil's in the details.

pj
chgo
I'm glad you admit you don't know by experience on a pool table, because there's a lot of us that would call bs on that. :sneaky:

Back in the early 90s when the rubber back cloth was being replaced by the faster synthetic types it took some time to adjust. I still like the older cloth that was slower and had more friction on it's nap, the cue ball jumped easier, no need for "jump cues" and players had to have a more powerful strokes, the lightning fast cloth actually punished players like Earl Strickland, Buddy Hall, and Billy Johnson (Wade Crane) at first, we adjusted, but none of us enjoyed the game quite as much.....I already mentioned the deflection rate differences, we all noticed immediately!

Same with the "One Foul Rules," it took so much skill, knowledge, excitement and entertainment out of the game and nobody seemed to notice except the players mentioned above and myself for sure (there were many more).
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
I'm glad you admit you don't know by experience on a pool table, because there's a lot of us that would call bs on that. :sneaky:
Speaking of BS...

I didn't say I haven't experienced it - I described the physics because I know that experience without knowledge can be misleading, even for champions. One champion I know of didn't believe that throw exists. How funny is that?

pj
chgo
 
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CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
Speaking of BS...

I didn't say I haven't experienced it - I described the physics because I know that experience without knowledge can be misleading, even for champions. One champion I know of didn't believe that throw exists. How funny is that?

pj
chgo
Post a video of yourself playing pool, I'm starting to doubt that you play the real game, I just remembered you play video games.

Show us you playing pool ON a real pool table and we'll take you seriously. I seriously doubt if any champion ever said throw doesn't exist unless they didn't speak English or understand the question. We all use throw, squirt, deflection, swerve, pinning, float, string, and whatever else you want to call the various shots and reactions in the game. There is a difference between being a real player and a armchair sweater.....nobody has ever missed a shot from their chair, however, players that don't put themselves in pressure situations never develop courage, and/or confidence.

The Game is the Teacher
 
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ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
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Silver Member
This thread is starting to get derailed and I hate to see that happen. Different perspectives seem to be the issue. The amount of force of squirt remains the same whether in deep space or playing on shag carpet. However, looking at those extremes it is easy to see that the amount the cue ball moves due to squirt can vary. To a lesser degree it can and must vary due to the cloth.

CJ reminds me a bit of some old fellows I used to compete with. They didn't always know why something worked, occasionally they even had some far out ideas about why things worked, but you could take it to the bank that things would happen just like they said! A ball skidding or spinning fairly slowly backwards is most affected by cloth fiction. Squirt would be affected from the time the cue ball starts moving and affected even more when it loses contact with the tip. To say anything else is to argue that something as basic as friction doesn't exist or can't vary.

I would choose PJ to help me with Physics homework but when I am shooting a shot for all the marbles I would much prefer CJ to do the coaching.
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
This thread is starting to get derailed and I hate to see that happen. Different perspectives seem to be the issue. The amount of force of squirt remains the same whether in deep space or playing on shag carpet. However, looking at those extremes it is easy to see that the amount the cue ball moves due to squirt can vary. To a lesser degree it can and must vary due to the cloth.

CJ reminds me a bit of some old fellows I used to compete with. They didn't always know why something worked, occasionally they even had some far out ideas about why things worked, but you could take it to the bank that things would happen just like they said! A ball skidding or spinning fairly slowly backwards is most affected by cloth fiction. Squirt would be affected from the time the cue ball starts moving and affected even more when it loses contact with the tip. To say anything else is to argue that something as basic as friction doesn't exist or can't vary.

I would choose PJ to help me with Physics homework but when I am shooting a shot for all the marbles I would much prefer CJ to do the coaching.
Yes, few people know that the defection rate changes due to the cloth. When I was traveling with Strong Arm John he was an expert on many things, including defection rates. It's no shame to not know about how the deepest levels of pocket billiards work, it took me thousands of hours around some of the greatest players and gamblers that ever lived. I told John earlier that I ran into players that thought deflection rates didn't change with the type of cloth and he just laughed and ask "where do they live, let's go bust em!" LoL Gotta love SA John, he's a legend!
 
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