Using "Center Ball" - is it good advice or a hidden disadvantage?

[Patrick Johnson]

I’m still trying to determine if I like nickel or dime better; I’m definitely leaning toward dime.

I PREFER DIME RADIUS​

A dime shape allows you to hit far out on the cue ball without coming as close to the edge of your tip.

The pic below shows dime and nickel shapes on 12.75mm and 10mm tips hitting the cue ball at the miscue limit. You can see that the dime shaped tips (on the right) don't hit quite as close to their edge as the nickel shaped ones.

pj
chgo

 

[Fay]

A dime shape allows you to hit far out on the cue ball without coming as close to the edge of your tip.

The pic below shows dime and nickel shapes on 12.75mm and 10mm tips hitting the cue ball at the miscue limit. You can see that the dime shaped tips (on the right) don't hit quite as close to the edge as the nickel shaped ones.

pj
chgo

View attachment 576022

YES
I PREFER DIME RADIUS​

 

[CJ Wiley]

CJ,

He is a Pool Scientist.

Do not question pool scientists.

Just agree with them, spot them, and take their money.

I guess, it's sad to see people so stuck on their belief system their own ego keeps them from excelling in life....a lot of that going on in this psychological operation they call "National News" these days......its an atrocity what they are doing to naive, unsuspecting people!

You can point these things out but people want to believe their illusions more than reality....Oh, well, at least it's still fun to talk about pool, hopefully that won't ever be taken away or there will be a serious uprising.

When Johnny Archer and I was in London at the Mosconi Cup we used to stay up late after everyone else went to sleep and talk about the next day's strategy. He knew the Mosconi Cup as well as anyone, I think he'd played in approximately 14 in a row. Even though he was more experienced than me in that specific area he still listened intently to my evaluation of that day's matches and what needed to be implemented the next day.

That's what I appreciate about all champion players I know personally, we can talk and explain our perception of the game and the other will add to the conversation, rarely do we blatantly disagree. We understand that at the highest levels there is a power much higher than ourselves involved, call it subconscious, higher power, or the breath of the universe, its really doesn't matter.

One thing I'd always wanted to ask Johnny is why he walks over to the perception of the object ball to the pocket....is it to see a contact point on the object ball, is it to see what part of the pocket he wanted to hit, or something else?

He said it was to see the shot from another perspective, simply to give his subconscious more information, especially on critical shots.

Then we talked about Hank Haney's golf book 'The Big Miss,' and that's another story for another time.

The Game is the Teacher

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...it's sad to see people so stuck on their belief system

We agree about that.

pj
chgo

 

[CJ Wiley]

A dime shape allows you to hit far out on the cue ball without coming as close to the edge of your tip.

The pic below shows dime and nickel shapes on 12.75mm and 10mm tips hitting the cue ball at the miscue limit. You can see that the dime shaped tips (on the right) don't hit quite as close to their edge as the nickel shaped ones.

pj
chgo

View attachment 576022

I'd recommend never using a level cue angle unless you're slow rolling a shot.

Too many players change the elevation of their bridge hand and aren't able to use the Edge of their cue like a martial artist uses their knuckles. I've told the story about what Buddy Hall told me and you can see he is correct by watching any of the Filipino players, Shane, SKY, etc.....they all have a slight downward angle to their cue on most shots, on follow shots they will generally have a slight upward angle, or they will force it forward with the top edge.

This is very important, and one of the most overlooked fundamental besides the "POP" element, like Popping a whip (the tip of the whip is like the tip of the cue in this analogy). Watch Shane VanB play for a few games and you'll see him Popping 80-90% of his shots in 9 or 10 Ball.

The Game is the Teacher

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I'd recommend never using a level cue angle unless you're slow rolling a shot.

A truly level cue is impossible, so... OK.

Buddy Hall ... the Filipino players, Shane, SKY, etc.....they all have a slight downward angle to their cue on most shots

On all shots. Anything else is impossible.

...on follow shots they will generally have a slight upward angle

It's impossible to hit the cue ball with the cue angled upward. The height of the rail (which the butt of the cue must be above) is just about at the miscue limit height on the cue ball with the butt rubbing on the rail (see pic below).

... or they will force it forward with the top edge.

Assuming you mean the top edge of the tip, this is also impossible. How can you hit the cue ball above center (for follow) with the top edge of the tip?

Visualizing this stuff isn't always easy...

pj
chgo

 

[CJ Wiley]

A truly level cue is impossible, so... OK.

On all shots. Anything else is impossible.

It's impossible to hit the cue ball with the cue angled upward. The height of the rail (which the butt of the cue must be above) is just about at the miscue limit height on the cue ball with the butt rubbing on the rail (see pic below).

Assuming you mean the top edge of the tip, this is also impossible. How can you hit the cue ball above center (for follow) with the top edge of the tip?

Visualizing this stuff isn't always easy...

pj
chgo

View attachment 576041

For a "force follow" shot you don't cue it above center, take a look at Bustamante or Shane VanB and you'll see the obvious. The angle of the cue is important, like the angle of the fist, to use the knuckles, not the flatness of the fist (tip in this analogy).

With the knuckles you can break boards,with the flatness of your fist you break the fist.....this is the difference that makes a noticeable physical difference!

 

[The_JV]

For a "force follow" shot you don't cue it above center,

I do... works great. Anything at center (which is consistently impossible I've read) would be a full stun, or below center would be a draw.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

For a "force follow" shot you don't cue it above center

Actually, I do. And I believe everybody else does too.

Maybe we're not talking about the same "force follow"...? To me that means follow hit with force (above center).

pj
chgo

 

[CJ Wiley]

I do... works great. Anything at center (which is consistently impossible I've read) would be a full stun, or below center would be a draw.

When we talk about creating stun shots and force follow reactions the distance we are from the object ball makes an essential difference! When you are 12 inches from the object ball for instance "center ball" would stop the ball in it's tracks, however, if it's 4 feet away the same stroke and cue ball target will follow a foot or two (depending on speed and cue angle). The same rule of thumb applies to the cue angle as well.

I believe in maximum consistency so I keep my bridge the same elevation (if possible, no obstructions) and use my right hand to move the tip like a lever effect. This enables me to either have a down angle, and use more the top of the tip or have an up angle with my cue and use the more the bottom of my tip. This may not sound like a significant variation from what you are doing now, I would suggest you experiment and see for yourself, always allow yourself to experiment, this keeps the game fresh, interesting and you may find the "magic bullet" for your game.

Remember, what I said Buddy Hall told me, "CJ, play the game favoring the edge of your cue, not the center" - words from the wise!

The Game is the Teacher

 

[The_JV]

When we talk about creating stun shots and force follow reactions the distance we are from the object ball makes an essential difference! When you are 12 inches from the object ball for instance "center ball" would stop the ball in it's tracks, however, if it's 4 feet away the same stroke and cue ball target will follow a foot or two (depending on speed and cue angle). The same rule of thumb applies to the cue angle as well.

I believe in maximum consistency so I keep my bridge the same elevation (if possible, no obstructions) and use my right hand to move the tip like a lever effect. This enables me to either have a down angle, and use more the top of the tip or have an up angle with my cue and use the more the bottom of my tip. This may not sound like a significant variation from what you are doing now, I would suggest you experiment and see for yourself, always allow yourself to experiment, this keeps the game fresh, interesting and you may find the "magic bullet" for your game.

Remember, what I said Buddy Hall told me, "CJ, play the game favoring the edge of your cue, not the center" - words from the wise!

The Game is the Teacher

Of course speed matters... Generally when hitting a full ball stun shot the pace doesn't matter so the 12" shot could hit as hard as the 4'er if you choose to. If I personally had to move the CB a foot beyond the OB, I wouldn't opt for a force follow.

Interesting on you preferring to adjust your backhand rather than alter your bridge. I was taught the complete opposite when cutting my teeth in snooker. I opt to adjust my bridge and keep my mechanics consistent.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Of course speed matters... Generally when hitting a full ball stun shot the pace doesn't matter so the 12" shot could hit as hard as the 4'er if you choose to. If I personally had to move the CB a foot beyond the OB, I wouldn't opt for a force follow.

Interesting on you preferring to adjust your backhand rather than alter your bridge. I was taught the complete opposite when cutting my teeth in snooker. I opt to adjust my bridge and keep my mechanics consistent.

You can keep the same bridge elevation, alter the tip target, and keep your mechanics consistent too. Snooker is different from pocketbilliards, with the smaller size balls it may be better to adjust your bridge, and snooker players use an open bridge, so it's probably not much of a change in elevation. I believe it's always good to experiment, so this may be worth 20 minutes to see what's actually the best option (I'd suggest always look for 2 options, sometimes it's a blending that works best).

 

[lfigueroa]

A truly level cue is impossible, so... OK.

On all shots. Anything else is impossible.

It's impossible to hit the cue ball with the cue angled upward. The height of the rail (which the butt of the cue must be above) is just about at the miscue limit height on the cue ball with the butt rubbing on the rail (see pic below).

Assuming you mean the top edge of the tip, this is also impossible. How can you hit the cue ball above center (for follow) with the top edge of the tip?

Visualizing this stuff isn't always easy...

pj
chgo

View attachment 576041

er, you can definitely hit the CB with an ascending cue and I'm not talking about an upward swarp.

It may be the difference between a GC and a Diamond but a Diamond has rails that slope slightly back, so it is very easy to set up with a high bridge and a low grip. This is also true of the billiard tables I've played on and Harry Sims and other 3C players have spoken of hitting the ball with an ascending stroke/follow.

Also, you can use the top of the tip to go forward if you're jacked up on the rail.

Lou Figueroa.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

er, you can definitely hit the CB with an ascending cue and I'm not talking about an upward swarp.

I don't think so. The lowest rail I've seen is about 1 1/2" high (flush with the top of the cushion) - the miscue limit is only 3/16" above that. With the cue ball any normal distance from the rail no meaningful upslope is possible.

Also, you can use the top of the tip to go forward if you're jacked up on the rail.

Not with follow english as claimed.

pj
chgo

 

[nick serdula]

The best player I ever knew said learn centerball. That is the only way to know you have hit the ball exactly where you are aiming and where you are hitting the cue ball for control. You will develope your perfect stroke. Maybe 6 months. After you do that never use centerball again unless you have to. And never shoot with a level cue. You will miss. You might miss. Centerball is the tool used to perfect your aim and cue control. Pockets are not used. It is all powerful. Pushing helps.
Nick

 

[boogieman]

The best player I ever knew said learn centerball. That is the only way to know you have hit the ball exactly where you are aiming and where you are hitting the cue ball for control. You will develope your perfect stroke. Maybe 6 months. After you do that never use centerball again unless you have to. And never shoot with a level cue. You will miss. You might miss. Centerball is the tool used to perfect your aim and cue control. Pockets are not used. It is all powerful. Pushing helps.
Nick

I think center ball, loose grip, smooth follow through are all taught because limiting beginners also makes them more consistent and they aren't missing all the time with no frame of reference. These type of shots are easy mode, and it may carry someone their entire pool career. Sure, it's super important to know these shots, and use them when the time calls, but limiting yourselves to only those shots is like keeping the training wheels on. Once you have a stroke, experiment with other types of stroke and keep what works out of everything. Focus on incorporating or practicing one new thing at a time so you can evaluate and properly tune your subconscious mind. You have "infinite" possibilities, why limit yourself to a few?

 

[CJ Wiley]

I think center ball, loose grip, smooth follow through are all taught because limiting beginners also makes them more consistent and they aren't missing all the time with no frame of reference. These type of shots are easy mode, and it may carry someone their entire pool career. Sure, it's super important to know these shots, and use them when the time calls, but limiting yourselves to only those shots is like keeping the training wheels on. Once you have a stroke, experiment with other types of stroke and keep what works out of everything. Focus on incorporating or practicing one new thing at a time so you can evaluate and properly tune your subconscious mind. You have "infinite" possibilities, why limit yourself to a few?

Yes, you are right, the "center ball, loose grip and extended follow through" may be good for beginners, however, to build a foundation you can improve on your entire life it's best to pay attention to what is being done at the world class level. Bustamante holds the cue very lightly, and when I ask him in Monroe at the Scotty Townsend tournament about his grip pressure he said he holds it firm at impact.

To transfer energy it's best to be firm, not tight, like bunting a baseball on a cold day if you hold the bat loose the ball doesn't go anywhere and the vibration hurts your hands. I teach one technique that you would cock your wrist, and open your hand slightly taking the cue back, then close your hand to release your wrist and fingers at the moment of contact. I can do it this way on certain shots, although my preference is to cock my wrist and feel like a release it without closing my hand at impact ( I do close it, just isn't what I feel predominantly).

Another thing that is misunderstood is trying to aim and hit the cueball exactly straight, that's not what I'm doing to create pocket zones. I align to the middle or edge of the object ball (depending on the angle of the shot), then aim for the inside of the pocket and FORCE the cue ball off line slightly so that it cuts the object ball slightly thinner so that ideally it hits the center of the pocket.....if I don't force it off line it hits the inside of the pocket and if I force it too far it hits the outside of the pocket.

This gives me a LOT of confidence, especially on tight pockets, it effectively makes my pocket bigger than my opponent's if they are not doing something similar! The only thing that can go wrong to miss a shot is if I don't accelerate at the moment of contact, that's more of a tempo concern, so I make sure my tempo is similar to a pendulum.

The Game is the Teacher

 

[CJ Wiley]

okay i will chime in here. cj is right that doing it his way does give you a bigger pocket if you miss by a small amount on where you hit the cue ball. similar to a golfer with a slice that utilizes the left side of the fairway for a right hander.

but where it fails to work is if you miss the spot on the object ball you need to hit. and weaker players will do that more often, as better players meaning top players will miss that spot rarely.
to hit that spot exactly all things must come together. and that is tough. it is much easier to hit the exact spot you are aiming at on the cueball than it is to hit the exact spot on the object ball. so by favoring one side of a pocket you effectively make that side much smaller, so your hit on the object ball that is off will be more devastating to you than the benefit of having a little better room on the other side.

back to the golfer. he now has a bigger fairway. a top pro golfer will have that whole fairway now to play with. an average golfer will sometimes pull his shot, miss hit it by aiming to far left, or actually giving his ball a little hook once in a while. now those things become devastating as he loses his ball in the woods.

That's a good point!

One thing that a lot of aspiring players don't put into perspective is the cue ball is always the primary target!

So many players are looking for some kind of magical aiming system and they don't real eyes the root of aiming a pool shot is at the cueball, not the object ball. I just use the object ball to align to, after that I don't pay a lot of attention to it until the last hesitation.....

I pause the tip, look and feel the connection to the object ball and ALWAYS watch what part of the pocket it hits before you move your head.....if you don't watch where the object ball hits the pocket it's like shooting a pistol and not watching where the bullet hits!

Your subconscious wants the satisfaction of completing the experience and the feedback of accomplishment (or lack of) - I also calibrate where I hit because I know if it hits the inside of the pocket my tempo was slightly off, if it hits the center all is well and if it hits the outside of the pocket I may need to make an adjustment BEFORE the next shot.

I try to treat all the shots the same, so If I under-cut or over-cut a ball I'll take if for granted that I'll probably do it again UNLESS I fix the issue before it becomes a problem......so I Constantly, Consistently Calibrate my shots (the 3 C's on my website)......don't take what I'm saying lightly, this is what champion players do that makes a huge difference!

The Game is the Teacher

 

[nick serdula]

Tip position is how to control the table once you can hit what you are aiming at. The speed you play will give away your level every time. I literally mean how hard you hit the rock. First learn aim and control. Then follow everything fore the cash! CJ you are too kind educating the masses.
Nick

 

[The_JV]

This is exciting... I almost agree with everything posted on this page. No mystical powers, quantum bs, or becoming one with the earth's ley lines to tap their true potting potential.

The method of aiming heavy to one side of the pocket to compensate for squirt, is just how it's done. No secret sauce there. Being good at it just takes practice, and no amount of koolaide no matter the flavour will replace experience.

This thread would have been so much shorter, if some would just learn to recognize that they are arguing over semantics. I'm going to hazard a guess and say CJ's "center" of pocket is the target area that allows the best approtunity to drop the OB. This can be wildly different then Patrick's measured "center" pocket.

The notion of TOI is just adhering to a shot methodology that always applies some level squirt to the CB even when unneeded so it can be habitually compensated for. Consistent repetition is the key to playing this game well, so it's hard to argue the approach. Even if the sales pitch is a little out in left field.