Using "Center Ball" - is it good advice or a hidden disadvantage?

straightline

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Snooker is too impractical an application of pool; not to mention changing horses just to confront the British mob for admission. You'd need a spare life, another tea party and revolution besides that funny stick.
 

gerryf

Active member
Alex Pagulayan won the Canadian Snooker Championship two years in a row, but was unable to get a Pro card either.

Clearly a different game with a different skillset. A lot more money though, and i assume that's a big reason why Corey and Alwx tried it!
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Mentioning snooker..... I'm still disappointed no pool player has successfully crossed over into Snooker. Corey Deuel won the 2013 US Snooker Championships, but then failed two or three times to actually qualify for the Snooker Professional tour. Corey's near the top as a 9-ball player, and i had really hoped he'd make it on the tour.
The best US snooker player would go flat busted if he went to the UK to play. There are players that just play club level snooker over there that would torture US players. Above that are the mini-tour type events and those guys are just a notch below the big boys.
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
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Silver Member
I wasn't talking about swerving the CB. I meant opening up an angle on a shot that can't be hit normally by hitting throwing the OB with CB outside spin. This cannot be done with inside.
I don't know what "opening up an angle on a shot" means, that's definitely the first time I've heard an expression like that. Do you think you can cut a normal shot better with outside English to inside English?
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
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Silver Member
The best US snooker player would go flat busted if he went to the UK to play. There are players that just play club level snooker over there that would torture US players. Above that are the mini-tour type events and those guys are just a notch below the big boys.
Yes, snooker is as different from pocketbilliards as ping pong is to tennis. I respect the talent levels in both games, but the cloth, balls, pockets, table size, cues, tips, rules, strategy, and overall mind set is different. It's easier to go from snooker to pool, but still takes some getting used to. If the game was just 6 Ball on a snooker table players like Alex, Shane, and Dennis Orcollo would have a good chance, but not playing snooker.
 

The_JV

Local_Pro
I don't know what "opening up an angle on a shot" means, that's definitely the first time I've heard an expression like that. Do you think you can cut a normal shot better with outside English to inside English?
Interesting... Wasn't a good portion of this thread focused around the use of only a few cut angles and then adjusting the shot with CB spin induced throw...? Are you saying you've never increased the cut angle (opening up the angle) of an object ball with the "throw" effect of CB outside spin..? I would find this extremely difficult to believe coming from former championship caliber player. I'm sure it must just be a matter of differing terminology between us. The technique is no different than shortening a cut angle with inside spin.

I don't think I can cut a ball "better" with outside english. However I can create a cut angle with only CB spin. Just like every other person that spins a CB into an OB. No lessons, decoder rings, private chats, and/or dvds for a low low price. Simple shoot the CB directly at the OB with nothing but either side spin and watch the magic happen. Usually in game play this is used to produce a cut angle that isn't possible with a normal direct hit due to obstructions. I've been playing a lot of 14.1 lately and using spin induced throw opens up a gambit of shot options when dealing with a heavily congested table.

Anyways, the point was you suggested you could do anything with TOI (other than the short list of things you said you couldn't) that other players could do with any CB spin. However you cannot increase the cut angle of a shot with inside spin (TOI). This would require outside spin.

You should try it.
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
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Silver Member
Interesting... Wasn't a good portion of this thread focused around the use of only a few cut angles and then adjusting the shot with CB spin induced throw...? Are you saying you've never increased the cut angle (opening up the angle) of an object ball with the "throw" effect of CB outside spin..? I would find this extremely difficult to believe coming from former championship caliber player. I'm sure it must just be a matter of differing terminology between us. The technique is no different than shortening a cut angle with inside spin.

I don't think I can cut a ball "better" with outside english. However I can create a cut angle with only CB spin. Just like every other person that spins a CB into an OB. No lessons, decoder rings, private chats, and/or dvds for a low low price. Simple shoot the CB directly at the OB with nothing but either side spin and watch the magic happen. Usually in game play this is used to produce a cut angle that isn't possible with a normal direct hit due to obstructions. I've been playing a lot of 14.1 lately and using spin induced throw opens up a gambit of shot options when dealing with a heavily congested table.

Anyways, the point was you suggested you could do anything with TOI (other than the short list of things you said you couldn't) that other players could do with any CB spin. However you cannot increase the cut angle of a shot with inside spin (TOI). This would require outside spin.

You should try it.
The Touch of Inside increases every cut angle....in the English language "Increase" and "Open" don't have the same meaning. And, yes, cuing the ball to the inside does increase my ability to make cut shots because I'm simply aiming my tip at the edge of the object ball.

And, for the record, TOI is not the same as "inside spin," we covered that a few days ago, if the cueball doesn't make one rotation it's like Twisting a bank......if someone thinks they are playing the TOI Technique and using inside English they aren't.

The GAME is the Teacher
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
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Silver Member
Well CJ I tried your technique today. I have always had a harder time with centerball shots than I do english shots. Just the way my stroke is. Works great!!
There is a tip target on the inside of the cueball, when pointed at the center or edge of the object ball that will make every shot on the table. This is what you are striving for, don't worry about the spin you are putting on the cue ball because after contact there won't be any spin. That's why the champion road players would say "he's got it on a string" or "he floats the cueball" to describe the after-contact-reaction on the cueball.

Play Well, the Game is the Teacher
 

The_JV

Local_Pro
The Touch of Inside increases every cut angle....in the English language "Increase" and "Open" don't have the same meaning. And, yes, cuing the ball to the inside does increase my ability to make cut shots because I'm simply aiming my tip at the edge of the object ball.

And, for the record, TOI is not the same as "inside spin," we covered that a few days ago, if the cueball doesn't make one rotation it's like Twisting a bank......if someone thinks they are playing the TOI Technique and using inside English they aren't.

The GAME is the Teacher
My apologies... I recently discovered that I am absolutely clueless regarding this game. Disregard the thoughts I have posted within your thread. I have zero doubt the things I have personally seen manifest on the table that don't jive with what I read on this board are nothing more than a figment of my imagination.
 

sparkle84

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The only thing missing in this thread is.......the one and only........Matt 007. Be interesting to see how he and Mr. Touch of Inside interact.
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
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The only thing missing in this thread is.......the one and only........Matt 007. Be interesting to see how he and Mr. Touch of Inside interact.
We may be the same, the ole "playing two sides against the middle" routine.....the ultimate Hegelian Dialectic, like the psychological operation they are doing on TV these days.
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
Well CJ I tried your technique today. I have always had a harder time with centerball shots than I do english shots. Just the way my stroke is. Works great!!
Here's some other things to consider to help your shotmaking, 34YearsOfPlayin....wow, mine has almost been 50 years, hard to believe!

There's two trains of thought when playing rotation games. One is to let the table dictate what shot you hit. That would mean you look at the shot and it tells you what speed, what spin, and what angle (is the best to get on your next shot).

The other way is what I'm suggesting. Develop a shot that enables you to maximize the pocket size. This means you line up to undercut the shot slightly (aim in the pocket, but on the "undercut side") and then either spin it, or deflect it to overcut{side} slightly.

Earl spins to accomplish this and I deflect it to "throw it in the pocket." I want to look at the table situation and MAKE my shot fit the scenario. I know this is not the "conventional" way of playing, but it's very effective and works great on tight, worn equipment. On new, fast cloth you shouldn't hit the shots quite as firm.

My preference is to over-cut the ball slightly with a "Touch" of Inside because I can get a more consistent result by adjusting my speed, rather than my "aim". Then you can start playing a consistent angle as well. This means you're controlling the angle, the speed, and the spin according to your preference, not because the "table tells you the shot."

Sounds backwards, however, think about it, how well could you play if you hit the same speed, {same}place on the cue ball, and{same} angle{most}every time?

If I undercut a shot I hit it firmer and accelerate more next time. If you miss the same shot hitting a "slow spin shot," you don't really know what happened if you miss. There's more calulations, so therefore more variables to deal with.

This doesn't enable you to play a lot better, but it does enable you to know why you don't make shots. It's vitally important, when you don't make one to immediately know what happened exactly!

If you make an adjustment that's incorrect it could throw you off temporately enough to lose a whole match or gambling set. The amount of money involved in matches I've played prohibited this type of guessing. I had to KNOW!

When you spin the ball or try to hit center and miss there's a lot more variatables and it's difficult to know and adjust for "misses". This effects your ability to maximize "margin of error."

"The difference between an amateur and a professional is an amateur will practice until they CAN make shots and a professional will practice until they CAN'T miss shots."
The Game is the Teacher
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
...maximize the pocket size. This means you line up to undercut the shot slightly (aim in the pocket, but on the "undercut side") and then either spin it, or deflect it to overcut{side} slightly.
Or line up to hit center pocket, then add a touch of side and adjust your aim for squirt. Identical shot - just described normally and without the “pocket maximizing” or “error reducing” fantasies.

pj
chgo
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
Or line up to hit center pocket, then add a touch of side and adjust your aim for squirt. Identical shot - just described normally and without the “pocket maximizing” or “error reducing” fantasies.

pj
chgo
Nobody can line up to hit the exact center of the pocket, it's not visually possible unless the shot is straight in or close.

I'd say few people can get down to the exact center of the cueball either, when SKY Woodward, (the VIP of the Mosconi Cup the last two years) was in Dallas we photographed him getting down to what he thought was exact center - He was a "Touch" to the inside naturally on his shots.

Speaking of the Mosconi Cup, just got word today that they players are on their way. GOOD LUCK IN LONDON, I still remember what it's like, and how rewarding it is to bring the CUP back to the USA......Earl Strickland and I drank champagne out of it, but that's another story. 😊
 

HawaiianEye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Nobody can line up to hit the exact center of the pocket, it's not visually possible unless the shot is straight in or close.

I'd say few people can get down to the exact center of the cueball either, when SKY Woodward, (the VIP of the Mosconi Cup the last two years) was in Dallas we photographed him getting down to what he thought was exact center - He was a "Touch" to the inside naturally on his shots.

Speaking of the Mosconi Cup, just got word today that they players are on their way. GOOD LUCK IN LONDON, I still remember what it's like, and how rewarding it is to bring the CUP back to the USA......Earl Strickland and I drank champagne out of it, but that's another story. 😊
I have never paid much attention to the Mosconi Cup.

It always appeared to me to be more of an “exhibition” than a pool tournament.

What year did pj play on the team.
 

The_JV

Local_Pro
Or line up to hit center pocket, then add a touch of side and adjust your aim for squirt. Identical shot - just described normally and without the “pocket maximizing” or “error reducing” fantasies.
This is exactly what I have done proficiently for years, but again, I really have zero clue what I'm doing, so please don't let that mislead you.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Nobody can line up to hit the exact center of the pocket, it's not visually possible unless the shot is straight in or close.
Sounds like you're talking about a "center of pocket" that's inside it somewhere. That's not a useful center for aiming purposes - the pocket's "center" for aiming purposes is at its mouth, midway between the pocket points, which can be seen clearly from everywhere.

pj
chgo
 
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garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have never paid much attention to the Mosconi Cup.

It always appeared to me to be more of an “exhibition” than a pool tournament.

What year did pj play on the team.
Seriously or just sarcasm? MC did start out as a British made-4-tv exhibition but it quickly morphed into a 'us-vs.-them' grudge match. Been some great matches and high drama in the series.
 
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