Pre shot question

[Imac007]

I don't do this... If I have determined that a shot requires that I take the time to assess it from the "pocket line". Then I discount the original 'estimate' from the CB point of view. For me it's just noise in the equation.

You perform some kind of parallel shift from the 'ghost ball line' to this 'reference line'

I took you through the process I use to find the contact point on both balls. Once I have my cue aligned from contact point to contact point a parallel shift to the cue ball center takes you to the ghost ball center, which I called a simple reference line.

My point about it being just a reference line is just that.

Depending on the cut angle, vertical height contact and cue ball velocity, throw can be an adjustment issue. Adjustment from the reference line was the point. And, you made this point as well.

If you decide to use gearing english you need to factor in deflection and the 40% parallel shift offset, from the reference line.

I substitute convergent inside for center ball, using the reference line midpoint pivot to about an eighth of a tip inside offset to deal with throw. No other adjustment needed. Works at all speeds and angles. For me I almost never use the reference line as my final aim line.

The contact estimation and correction process is needed for an accurate perceptual contact point to contact point alignment.

Finding the contact line from the ball to pocket is essential. However, it needs to be held in mind, remembered, estimated when aligning with its counterpart on the cue ball. Constantly estimating from the cue ball, then checking from the ball to pocket, just makes you better and better at finding that point from the cue ball.

Only one of the two contact points is needed to hit the second contact point. It is physically impossible to hit the contact point on either ball without the second contact point being the actual impact point. So our objectives are the same at impact.

Having both contact points accurately located is like a second opinion. Two processes that come to the same conclusion increase the probability of success.

When both the front of the cue ball and object ball points feel aligned, confidence increases and the subconscious doesn’t feel a need to adjust the cue line mid stroke.

 

[The_JV]

I took you through the process I use to find the contact point on both balls. Once I have my cue aligned from contact point to contact point a parallel shift to the cue ball center takes you to the ghost ball center, which I called a simple reference line.

My point about it being just a reference line is just that.

Depending on the cut angle, vertical height contact and cue ball velocity, throw can be an adjustment issue. Adjustment from the reference line was the point.

If you decide to use gearing english you need to factor in deflection and the 40% parallel shift offset, from the reference line.

I substitute convergent inside for center ball, using the reference line midpoint pivot to about an eighth of a tip inside offset to deal with throw. No other adjustment needed. Works at all speeds and angles.

The contact estimation and correction process is needed for an accurate perceptual contact point to contact point alignment.

Finding the contact line from the ball to pocket is essential. However, it needs to be held in mind, remembered, estimated when aligning with its counterpart on the cue ball. Constantly estimating from the cue ball, then checking from the ball to pocket, just makes you better and better at finding that point from the cue ball.

Only one of the two contact points is needed to hit the second contact point. It is physically impossible to hit the contact point on either ball without the second contact point being the actual impact point.

Having both contact points accurately located is like a second opinion. Two processes that come to the same conclusion increase the probability of success.

When both the front of the cue ball and object ball points feel aligned, confidence increases and the subconscious doesn’t feel a need to adjust the cue line mid stroke.

oh ok cool.... Way less perplexed now

 

[Island Drive]

I posted this in the main forum but couldn’t get a definite answer so I thought I would ask here for the instructors. When I watch the pros play, some of them get directly behind the object ball and the pocket before they go back behind the cue ball to set up for the shot. Why do they do this? The only guess I have is that they are determining the contact point on the object ball. Thank you in advance for the reply’s.

I prefer to have two different perspectives of the shot at hand. This helps me feeeeeeeeeel my natural tangent/ lines coming off the ball to be struck. I find this good info, to continue my run.

ALSO and most important for me, is when the ball to be pocketed is Almost straight in and I have allot of cue ball movement or extra ''swing speed'' to my next shot.

Often I will change my first decision and use follow instead of draw and vise versa.

 

[sparkle84]

Hey Fran, surely you understand his latest post. Everything should now be crystal clear.

 

[straightline]

Hey Fran, surely you understand his latest post. Everything should now be crystal clear.

I'm about to repost because it's a full page disjointed.

 

[straightline]

It is what it is? Then what is it? LOL What's a "carom tangent?" What's a "thin one?" What's a "ghost pocket?" What's a "third eye pocket?" How do you use the "hidden face" of a ball as if it were a cushion? Did I just enter the Twilight Zone or am I just not up on all the latest terminology?

Try clearly defining some of your "nounage" (or better yet, use common "nounage") - then more of us might be able to appreciate your insights.

pj
chgo

Common Terminology Explanation
Ok, not that this needs clarifying:

carom tangent = the same line referred to as "THE TANGENT LINE" which frankly is more ambiguous but whatever...
When looking from the cue ball to a cut, the thinner the cut, the more prominent the carom tangent. IOW playing the cue ball can substitute for playing the pocket with equal results.
Back Story: I've practiced multi cushion billiards on a pool table for many minutes spanning several decades and was always surprised by thin hits resulting in pocketed balls.
Epipihany: If it's too thin to see the pocket, play the cue ball.

Epiphany 2: Rail Shots supply the pocket line.
So, if you have trouble visualizing that on non-rail shots, use the line across the face of the ball you can see.
Ghost Pocket is wherever that line goes with accommodations for the actual ball.

Third eying the pocket is if you can't make the leap of faith, keep it located in you mind.

No time was wasted walking over to the object ball to find the pocket though I do that anyway.

 

[straightline]

I prefer to have two different perspectives of the shot at hand. This helps me feeeeeeeeeel my natural tangent/ lines coming off the ball to be struck. I find this good info, to continue my run.

ALSO and most important for me, is when the ball to be pocketed is Almost straight in and I have allot of cue ball movement or extra ''swing speed'' to my next shot.

Often I will change my first decision and use follow instead of draw and vise versa.

Shooting with the carom in mind is always a good idea. Pocketing the ball in most cases is a given and it's the cue ball that needs playing.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

- the thinner the cut, the more prominent the carom tangent
- If it's too thin to see the pocket, play the cue ball

Can you clarify these?

Thanks,

pj
chgo

 

[straightline]

Can you clarify these?

Thanks,

pj
chgo

Say you got a backcut in the middle of nowhere. Pocket's nowhere in sight, one nanometer is as good as another on that last bit of edge. Shoot the carom. No microscopic mystery required.

 

[FranCrimi]

Common Terminology Explanation
Ok, not that this needs clarifying:

carom tangent = the same line referred to as "THE TANGENT LINE" which frankly is more ambiguous but whatever...
When looking from the cue ball to a cut, the thinner the cut, the more prominent the carom tangent. IOW playing the cue ball can substitute for playing the pocket with equal results.
Back Story: I've practiced multi cushion billiards on a pool table for many minutes spanning several decades and was always surprised by thin hits resulting in pocketed balls.
Epipihany: If it's too thin to see the pocket, play the cue ball.

Epiphany 2: Rail Shots supply the pocket line.
So, if you have trouble visualizing that on non-rail shots, use the line across the face of the ball you can see.
Ghost Pocket is wherever that line goes with accommodations for the actual ball.

Third eying the pocket is if you can't make the leap of faith, keep it located in you mind.

No time was wasted walking over to the object ball to find the pocket though I do that anyway.

I really do appreciate your attempt at clarification but I have to give it to you straight. This is total B.S. You're making this stuff up as you go along.

 

[FranCrimi]

Oh, and to add to my response to the OP's original question, there's also another reason why a pro might not walk around behind the ob. That would be because pro players think several shots ahead and he may have already done the work on that ball one or two shots before it. As long as the table layout remains the same, there's no reason to go back and re-study the shot unless you're second-guessing yourself. But you can rest assure that the pro will not shoot that shot without having done his homework on it at some point. So what you will typically see in a pro player's rhythm around the table is --- shoot a few shots in a row fairly quickly, then stop and study a few and then shoot a few quickly again. It has to do with the back and forth between studying and being resolved on the next few shots.

 

[straightline]

I really do appreciate your attempt at clarification but I have to give it to you straight. This is total B.S. You're making this stuff up as you go along.

These references are inexorably part of pool. Please detail how they are BS and further how you ascertain that I'm inventing these items?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Say you got a backcut in the middle of nowhere. Pocket's nowhere in sight, one nanometer is as good as another on that last bit of edge. Shoot the carom. No microscopic mystery required.

What’s a “more prominent” carom tangent?

Does “shoot the carom” mean aim to create the carom angle that would result from making the pot?

If you’re actually trying to communicate, why use such uncommon terms?

pj
chgo

 

[straightline]

What’s a “more prominent” carom tangent?

Does “shoot the carom” mean aim to create the carom angle that would result from making the pot?

If you’re actually trying to communicate, why use such uncommon terms?

pj
chgo

Insight makes it's own language. The carom is more prominent than the contact area on thin cuts.
Shoot the carom: more or less what you said.
I think those frustrated or befuddled by contact points should spend considerable time shooting ducks, making detailed observations of the collisions.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Insight makes it's own language.

If you’re not interested in being understood, why post at all? Oh well, easy enough to ignore your “insights”.

pj
chgo

 

[straightline]

Not charging a dime. Don't need to spoon feed anybody. You asked I elaborate.

 

[FranCrimi]

These references are inexorably part of pool. Please detail how they are BS and further how you ascertain that I'm inventing these items?

Because you're not being clear at all. It's not just me saying that. When it's muddy in your head, it comes out muddy in your writing. For example, take this line you wrote in your clarification post: "...the thinner the cut, the more prominent the carom tangent." What in the name of the holy gods of pool does that mean? It's just muddy in your head, straightline. That's your problem. I'm sorry that I have to confront you like this but this is the ask the instructor forum. People come here for advice. I have to point out the questionable stuff. I consider that to be my responsibility as a teacher in this forum.

 

[straightline]

Because you're not being clear at all. It's not just me saying that. When it's muddy in your head, it comes out muddy in your writing. For example, take this line you wrote in your clarification post: "...the thinner the cut, the more prominent the carom tangent." What in the name of the holy gods of pool does that mean? It's just muddy in your head, straightline. That's your problem. I'm sorry that I have to confront you like this but this is the ask the instructor forum. People come here for advice. I have to point out the questionable stuff. I consider that to be my responsibility as a teacher in this forum.

I think you may have appointed yourself queen of this thread and are defending your territory. If you can't make the correlation between, cuts, caroms, and shot perception in a shooting thread, maybe you should go back to piano.
Some advice for you:
Comprehension, and perception are part of the teaching process. Mother hen-ing, not so much.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Some advice for you:
Comprehension, and perception are part of the teaching process. Mother hen-ing, not so much.

Some advice for you:
If your teaching is often incomprehensible, maybe teaching isn't for you. Fran's advice is always clearly understood.

pj
chgo

 

[gerryf]

Common Terminology Explanation
Ok, not that this needs clarifying:

carom tangent = the same line referred to as "THE TANGENT LINE" which frankly is more ambiguous but whatever...
When looking from the cue ball to a cut, the thinner the cut, the more prominent the carom tangent. IOW playing the cue ball can substitute for playing the pocket with equal results.
Back Story: I've practiced multi cushion billiards on a pool table for many minutes spanning several decades and was always surprised by thin hits resulting in pocketed balls.
Epipihany: If it's too thin to see the pocket, play the cue ball.

Epiphany 2: Rail Shots supply the pocket line.
So, if you have trouble visualizing that on non-rail shots, use the line across the face of the ball you can see.
Ghost Pocket is wherever that line goes with accommodations for the actual ball.

Third eying the pocket is if you can't make the leap of faith, keep it located in you mind.

No time was wasted walking over to the object ball to find the pocket though I do that anyway.

Yeah, i agree. This isn't informative.