Gorst vs Orcullo??

[sjm]

Interesting question. Those races to 25 against Kaci are not in FargoRate. But in the last two years, Alex has played 146 games against the top 13 players in FargoRate: Shane(36), JL Chang(15), PY Ko(14), PC Ko(61), and LV Corteza(20), and his record for those is 73 wins and 73 losses

Also, you are an Ontario player so you are probably aware just a few months ago he beat Erik Hjorliefson (743), Waleed Hasheem (705), Carlin Sanderson (699) and DJ McGinley (699) by a combined score of 60 to 20 with nobody reaching the halfway mark in races to 15.

Mike, are action matches ineligible for inclusion in Fargo?

Kaci vs Pagulayan was a streamed action match played at Grif's in Las Vegas during the last week of July, 2019. The bet was $20,000. First, I must correct myself as I just looked it up. These were races to 21, not 25.

The best recap of the match is found in Post #109 of this thread: Alex Pagulayan vs Eklent Kaci Action Match July 27-29th...Who do you guys like ? | Page 6 | AzBilliards Forums

Kaci won all three sets, 21-14, 21-13, and then 21-18, for a combined score of 63-45, which was a serious drubbing.

 

[mikepage]

Mike, are action matches ineligible for inclusion in Fargo?

Kaci vs Pagulayan was a streamed action match played at Grif's in Las Vegas during the last week of July, 2019. The bet was $20,000. First, I must correct myself as I just looked it up. These were races to 21, not 25.

The best recap of the match is found in Post #109 of this thread: Alex Pagulayan vs Eklent Kaci Action Match July 27-29th...Who do you guys like ? | Page 6 | AzBilliards Forums

Kaci won all three sets, 21-14, 21-13, and then 21-18, for a combined score of 63-45, which was a serious drubbing.

Generally they are eligible between top players when they are publicly announced and recorded, etc. and a commitment to input the results is made before the outcome is known. The veil of ignorance is a bias filter.

 

[sjm]

Generally they are eligible between top players when they are publicly announced and recorded, etc. and a commitment to input the results is made before the outcome is known. The veil of ignorance is a bias filter.

As you'll see in the thread I referenced (see Post #1), this high stakes clash between two of the stars of the game was announced eight days in advance. Was that not enough notice? Don't know if it was recorded, but I remember watching the live stream.

 

[8cree]

So what does FargoRate say about Orcullo vs Gorst?

 

[pt109]

As you'll see in the thread I referenced (see Post #1), this high stakes clash between two of the stars of the game was announced eight days in advance. Was that not enough notice? Don't know if it was recorded, but I remember watching the live stream.

I think what Mr Page is saying is that people sleep on reporting the results. Mike shouldn’t have to search to see what’s going on...the people running those events should report to Fargo.

a few years ago, somebody complained about AZ not giving enough info on tournaments.
AZhousepro said that people didn’t send him the info....things would be a easier if people were more responsible.
iIf I was running a tournament...nobody would have to wonder about the results...and the sponsors would get mentioned. I feel sponsors don’t get enough bang for their buck....their contributions are more like charity than a business transaction.

Stu, I got a feeling you’ll agree with this...we see eye to eye on a lot of stuff.

 

[sjm]

I think what Mr Page is saying is that people sleep on reporting the results. Mike shouldn’t have to search to see what’s going on...the people running those events should report to Fargo.

a few years ago, somebody complained about AZ not giving enough info on tournaments.
AZhousepro said that people didn’t send him the info....things would be a easier if people were more responsible.
iIf I was running a tournament...nobody would have to wonder about the results...and the sponsors would get mentioned. I feel sponsors don’t get enough bang for their buck....their contributions are more like charity than a business transaction.

Stu, I got a feeling you’ll agree with this...we see eye to eye on a lot of stuff.

Yes, Paul, we do agree on this. I'm just trying to get a greater handle on how it all works. FYI, I am one of Mike Page's biggest fans.

 

[sjm]

So what does FargoRate say about Orcullo vs Gorst?

It says that, based on Fargo, Gorst is the ninth best player in the world and Orcullo is tenth best. I'd rate each slightly higher relative to their fellow professionals, but Fargo confirms what most of us feel - Gorst vs Orcullo would be a dandy of a matchup.

 

[jay helfert]

My opinion about Alex is that he can get out of stroke after not playing for a while, but let him play for a week or two in tough action and he will fall back into stroke. IMO his career is not nearly over at 40 or 41. Filipinos tend to have long careers anyway; Examples are Parica, Efren and Francisco. My prediction is that Alex will win again when there is some real money on the line. He looked out of stroke against Kaci. He may yet avenge that loss.

 

[VarmintKong]

Much respect to Mike Page and Fargo. A straight race to 20 let’s say, Fargo will tell you about how things will end up pretty accurately, most of the time.

When you have guys making stipulations like you can’t check the rack, how could you possibly report those results. It’s posturing right? Request something unreasonable and hope you gain somewhere else.

Anyways, how do matches with caveats and stipulations count without asterisks in a system like Fargo?

 

[8cree]

Much respect to Mike Page and Fargo. A straight race to 20 let’s say, Fargo will tell you about how things will end up pretty accurately, most of the time.

When you have guys making stipulations like you can’t check the rack, how could you possibly report those results. It’s posturing right? Request something unreasonable and hope you gain somewhere else.

Anyways, how do matches with caveats and stipulations count without asterisks in a system like Fargo?

Good point.

Also, did the latest Gorst v Bergman match get counted in Fargorate?

 

[sjm]

My opinion about Alex is that he can get out of stroke after not playing for a while, but let him play for a week or two in tough action and he will fall back into stroke. IMO his career is not nearly over at 40 or 41. Filipinos tend to have long careers anyway; Examples are Parica, Efren and Francisco. My prediction is that Alex will win again when there is some real money on the line. He looked out of stroke against Kaci. He may yet avenge that loss.

Inclined to agree here. Alex is just rusty from a lack of serious play right now. Now that Efren has retired, I'd say Alex plays pool with more imagination than any other player in the world. If he rededicates himself, there's no reason he can't have a full return to form. Where we disagree, however, is that I think it would take more than a couple of weeks.

 

[pt109]

Inclined to agree here. Alex is just rusty from a lack of serious play right now. Now that Efren has retired, I'd say Alex plays pool with more imagination than any other player in the world. If he rededicates himself, there's no reason he can't have a full return to form. Where we disagree, however, is that I think it would take more than a couple of weeks.

Alex had a world class break when he was young....but he wasn’t built for that...ended up with something like tennis elbow...reminds me of why Danny D had to give up boxing...he could knock out a heavyweight, but it was too hard on his hands.....however, the template should give him a good chance at competing at 9/10-ball.
...but his style suits one hole, snooker, and straight pool better.

 

[sjm]

Alex had a world class break when he was young....but he wasn’t built for that...ended up with something like tennis elbow...reminds me of why Danny D had to give up boxing...he could knock out a heavyweight, but it was too hard on his hands.....however, the template should give him a good chance at competing at 9/10-ball.
...but his style suits one hole, snooker, and straight pool better.

Thanks for sharing.

Alex first came onto my radar at the BCA Open at the Riviera in what I believe was 1996 when he had lunch with me and Jeanette Lee. He was about 18, looked younger, and I'd never even heard of him. Jeanette introduced him to me, calling him a prodigy. It was the greatest understatement since the day Irving Crane introduced me to Sigel in 1978 and called him "one to watch."

With Alex now on my radar, I saw to it that I'd watch one of his matches, and he was certainly something to behold. He's long been one of my favorite players.

 

[one stroke]

I've only rated my top 10, and yes, I see Little Ko, the reigning World 10-ball Champion, as a bit stronger than Big Ko right now. My next ten, in no particular order would be, Ko Pin Yi, Liu Haitao, Eklent Kaci, Albin Ouschan, Carlo Biado, Johann Chua, Lee Van Cortezza, David Alcaide, Alex Kazakis, and James Aranas. Let's call them Tier 4.

I think Biado is top 10 for the cash the guys gets little respect but his game and heart can't be over looked , Talking with one of DO's backers at times , said he likes DO on tight pockets because he rolls balls better than Fedor making the pockets more favorable to him , he doesn't like him on 4.5 near as much , I tend to agree , what do you think ?

1

 

[sjm]

I think Biado is top 10 for the cash the guys gets little respect but his game and heart can't be over looked , Talking with one of DO's backers at times , said he likes DO on tight pockets because he rolls balls better than Fedor making the pockets more favorable to him , he doesn't like him on 4.5 near as much , I tend to agree , what do you think ?

1

I agree, and I disagree.

Agreed that Dennis' action is much stronger on super-tight equipment, but I don't think it's because of any advantage in ball pocketing. The super-tight equipment would reduce Fedor's edge in pocketing, but Fedor would remain the better ball pocketer. Dennis has a small edge over Fedor in pattern play and a big edge in defensive play. Other than Alex Pagulayan, I believe that Dennis is the best defensive player in the world. Matches on ridiculously tight pockets make sharp pattern play more important and defensive play is at a huge premium on such tight equipment. These two factors would help Dennis Orcullo's chances a lot.

As for Biado, I'd put him in the 11-15 range among the world's top players for certain, but our Asian posters have observed that Anton Raga (whom I'd rate about 9th) has been carving him up in their matches of late. That means that Biado is at best third among the Filipinos, and to be honest, right now I'd call Lee Van Cortezza his equal.

 

[MattPoland]

Thanks for sharing.

Alex first came onto my radar at the BCA Open at the Riviera in what I believe was 1996 when he had lunch with me and Jeanette Lee. He was about 18, looked younger, and I'd never even heard of him. Jeanette introduced him to me, calling him a prodigy. It was the greatest understatement since the day Irving Crane introduced me to Sigel in 1978 and called him "one to watch."

With Alex now on my radar, I saw to it that I'd watch one of his matches, and he was certainly something to behold. He's long been one of my favorite players.

Can we take your life, bottle it up, and share it with others?

 

[8cree]

I guess Shane put the brakes on all this talk. He and Dennis confirmed a rematch yesterday I just heard on the Orcullo v Woodward match... Nice! Guess we need a new thread for that one if their isnt one started already.

 

[penguin]

I guess Shane put the brakes on all this talk. He and Dennis confirmed a rematch yesterday I just heard on the Orcullo v Woodward match... Nice! Guess we need a new thread for that one if their isnt one started already.

Shane must be anxious to get his piece of that Pay-Per-View money

 

[Dave714]

I wonder if Shane is ducking Gorst.??

 

[pt109]

Dennis said on a video that if he plays Fedor the 10-ball that he wants, he has to play one pocket also.