Pre shot question

straightline said:
Incidentally somebody please continue this thread per the OP. I already answered satisfactorily in both the original thread and this one.
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My original response was about the body getting organized physically to find the aim line. There is more to playing than the physical. That said, more recent research tells us that the conscious mind receives information from the body, after the fact. The implication of note is that the more complete the information at the physical level, the more likely it can execute. The conscious mind is a feedback tool, based on this fact. When research was done with pro putters, their perception was tested, extracted from that consciousness. On missed putts golfers reported that the ball and the hole were perceptually smaller. How is that possible?

Our eyes are perceived as two cameras. Both are needed for depth perception. However, pool players have been more obsessed with the dominant eye than other maybe more important aspects. From two visual sources we assemble one image in our visual cortex. Cognitive construction goes beyond arranging objects, we can manipulate and manage what we see. Look at the shot, really look, closer, even closer. If you understood that last sentence, it means you could replicate it in mind You have experienced it. Cognitive magnification as a concept now takes on an unexpected importance. Big balls and enormous pockets remind me of what the zone is about. Is there anything else they have discovered about this? The answer is yes.

When we narrow in on an object and it becomes a larger part of our zone of focus, our attention window, details start to emerge. The surface of targeted objects, such as a pool ball, reveal more information. Light reflections, surface imperfections, chalk, shadows, contact point locations relative to stripes, nearby lint or flecks of chalk on the table. Once small details become part of perception the size of the ball in comparison expands. By taking a visual location nearer to the object ball and the target line both the ball details and pocket size can be inflated even more. Focusing on the details about the contact area revealed from that closer look, a player can hold onto them as he returns to the cue ball. Perception changes as we move laterally to any fixed position and watching as you move to a new location allows you to maintain accurate location perception. So what can a player take from this?

”Take a closer look.“ Look for the lint and chalk on the ball paths. Small details next to larger objects makes the balls look bigger. Now get close to the object ball and find the contact point to pocket line. Find the contact point and focus on any details that help to use for location reference. Get focused in and hold those details as you get back to the cue ball. Your body now should have as complete a picture as is needed to match coordination to execution. Holding onto size and details should help you “see” the balls better.

Hopefully this gives the OP enough to digest concerning why better players do this.
 
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Not to take away from this thread, I started a similar one about a month ago here:

6 Steps of the Pool Shot

6 STEPS OF THE POOL SHOT: Step 1: FIRE UP Step 2: CHOOSE Step 3: AIM Step 4: SET-UP Step 5: SHOOT Step 6: FINISH THE CONCEPT: Breaking the shot into 6 steps provides a simple framework of it. Then the shot is built and corrected upon that. A new player might simply focus on doing...
forums.azbilliards.com

I go into more than a PRE shot routine and delve into a routine, or recipe I call it, for the WHOLE shot.

fwiw,


Jeff Livingston
 
Imac007 said:
My original response was about the body getting organized physically to find the aim line. There is more to playing than the physical. That said, more recent research tells us that the conscious mind receives information from the body, after the fact. The implication of note is that the more complete the information at the physical level, the more likely it can execute. The conscious mind is a feedback tool, based on this fact. When research was done with pro putters, their perception was tested, extracted from that consciousness. On missed putts golfers reported that the ball and the hole were perceptually smaller. How is that possible?

Our eyes are perceived as two cameras. Both are needed for depth perception. However, pool players have been more obsessed with the dominant eye than other maybe more important aspects. From two visual sources we assemble one image in our visual cortex. Cognitive construction goes beyond arranging objects, we can manipulate and manage what we see. Look at the shot, really look, closer, even closer. If you understood that last sentence, it means you could replicate it in mind You have experienced it. Cognitive magnification as a concept now takes on an unexpected importance. Big balls and enormous pockets remind me of what the zone is about. Is there anything else they have discovered about this? The answer is yes.

When we narrow in on an object and it becomes a larger part of our zone of focus, our attention window, details start to emerge. The surface of targeted objects, such as a pool ball, reveal more information. Light reflections, surface imperfections, chalk, shadows, contact point locations relative to stripes, nearby lint or flecks of chalk on the table. Once small details become part of perception the size of the ball in comparison expands. By taking a visual location nearer to the object ball and the target line both the ball details and pocket size can be inflated even more. Focusing on the details about the contact area revealed from that closer look, a player can hold onto them as he returns to the cue ball. Perception changes as we move laterally to any fixed position and watching as you move to a new location allows you to maintain accurate location perception. So what can a player take from this?

”Take a closer look.“ Look for the lint and chalk on the ball paths. Small details next to larger objects makes the balls look bigger. Now get close to the object ball and find the contact point to pocket line. Find the contact point and focus on any details that help to use for location reference. Get focused in and hold those details as you get back to the cue ball. Your body now should have as complete a picture as is needed to match coordination to execution. Holding onto size and details should help you “see” the balls better.

Hopefully this gives the OP enough to digest concerning why better players do this.
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Very interesting stuff here. To take it a step farther, I think there may be a correlation between good stroke timing and visual perception. When I'm playing in the zone, the balls and pockets look larger. But what's really interesting to me is that as a spectator, when I'm watching a player shooting who's in the zone, the balls and pockets look larger to me as well --- and I wasn't even playing! I first noticed it with Ray Martin, who was my teacher for a few years. I got to know his game really well and I started noticing that when he fell into stroke, the balls and pockets suddenly appeared larger to me. Then I started noticing it while watching other players play who fell into stroke during a match.
 
FranCrimi said:
Very interesting stuff here. To take it a step farther, I think there may be a correlation between good stroke timing and visual perception. When I'm playing in the zone, the balls and pockets look larger. But what's really interesting to me is that as a spectator, when I'm watching a player shooting who's in the zone, the balls and pockets look larger to me as well --- and I wasn't even playing! I first noticed it with Ray Martin, who was my teacher for a few years. I got to know his game really well and I started noticing that when he fell into stroke, the balls and pockets suddenly appeared larger to me. Then I started noticing it while watching other players play who fell into stroke during a match.
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This insight started with playing journals years ago. I commented on a bad day on a snooker table that it was like chasing a pea around on the freeway. Then a day like you described. Huge balls, enormous pockets. I went WHOA. This was my mind playing tricks on my ego. I can’t let stuff like this right under my nose go. I have another one for you.

Years ago an older player, had an interesting style. It had elements of Bustamante, Effren and even SVB. He would put his bridge down on the shot line first. Then he would go like he was loosening up his arm right from the shoulder. The tip would mainly move back and forth across the ball face. Then he would rotate his grip hand from the outside and bring the cue dead on line, stop at the cue ball, then deliver the cue with deadly potting accuracy. He couldn’t play position worth shit and nervousness made him look like an arcade whackamo sometimes. But boy could he pot.
FranCrimi said:
a correlation between good stroke timing and visual perception
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A while ago I was working on my whole stance, which starts with my on line cue already in place. I try not to let it get moved even a touch while getting folded onto the shot line. During a stroke test, using a whole arm stroke, I happened to engage my upper arm in a feel rehearsal of using the cue coming into impact. Somehow the tip did a slowish sweep across the ball. My mind was right there. For every millimeter of new cue line with all the variances of tip height, velocity sense and differing changing amounts of english, my mind was flashing me the different object ball paths. My inner reservoir of sensed shots was being laid out one by one in the present. I experimented. Changing sensed differences in tip height contacts and different speeds of intended stroke, laid out new and different paths.

WOW! Then I brought this forward during the actual stroke. I removed the usual frozen upper arm constraint of backswing and let it seek the shot line. Some interesting things occurred. Using my carefully chosen and calibrated aim lines as a starting point minuscule adjustments were found in both cueing and aim line were sensed when my eyes were forced to track and get a better 3D sense of the actual shot. Previously I was fixated on a chosen aim line and then transitioned to delivering a straight cue. By purposely creating a subsequent wavering cue moving back and forth on either side of the intended shot line, an aim error could be sensed, before delivery, because aim and delivery were no longer separate. The upper arm became a more active part of the straight delivery adjustment matrix. My grip retired from the adjustment business giving the big muscles of the arm time to find the line with the passive hand just needing to flex down and through during the stroke, thus holding the cue on a straight plane throughout. The process went quickly with my subconscious zeroing in on a highly accurate cue line powered by a slotted arm. I just trusted and the results were highly predictive.

Everything from table management to self management on a physical and mental level are a work in progress. Unless it is evolving constantly, you are likely stagnating. I’m in my 70’s. Every part of my game is different and better than it was a year ago.

I relate strongly to your perception, timing and more, correlation. Hope this adds even more.
 
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It doesn't exclusively apply to contact point aiming. Whether we realize it or not, most players use a mixed set of tools when it comes to aiming. So for any given shot, the more visual input you can supply to your mind, the more "tools" it'll have to accurately determine where the cb needs to be in order to pocket the ob, and also where the cb is going to go afterwards.

Most better/advanced players have developed the habit of using their legs often. They walk around and look at shots from several different angles.
 
BC21 said:
It doesn't exclusively apply to contact point aiming. Whether we realize it or not, most players use a mixed set of tools when it comes to aiming. So for any given shot, the more visual input you can supply to your mind, the more "tools" it'll have to accurately determine where the cb needs to be in order to pocket the ob, and also where the cb is going to go afterwards.

Most better/advanced players have developed the habit of using their legs often. They walk around and look at shots from several different angles.
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I think this is a great post but I'd be a little careful about saying they are walking around to look at shots from several different angles. They are looking at more than one shot when they walk around as they think at least 3 shots ahead. I don't really think they're looking at each shot from several different angles. I know you didn't specifically say "each shot," but that's kind of what it sounded like.
 
FranCrimi said:
I think this is a great post but I'd be a little careful about saying they are walking around to look at shots from several different angles. They are looking at more than one shot when they walk around as they think at least 3 shots ahead. I don't really think they're looking at each shot from several different angles. I know you didn't specifically say "each shot," but that's kind of what it sounded like.
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Exactly. The current shot angle gets looked at maybe from a couple of perspectives for the sole purpose of pocketing the ball, but the next shot or two is also being visualized and planned as well. By walking around and looking at exactly where you want the cb to end up, we give ourselves the best opportunity of actually making it happen as visualized.

Taking an extra 5 sec to walk around (looking at the current shot angle for aiming purposes, and also looking at where the cb needs to go for the next shot) doesn't mean you're always going to pocket the ball or always going to play cb position exactly as you envision. But visualizing a desired outcome is a very effective way of achieving it. It also helps the mind develop consistent habits for aiming and position play.
 
chefjeff said:
Several times, before I started to always Look it Over, I ran 7 balls got to the 8 and realized it wouldn't go in.

der


Jeff Livingston
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LOL I've done stuff like that too, and then I realized I had to stop making assumptions and move my legs and go take a look at the real thing.
 
Charles Hartfield said:
I posted this in the main forum but couldn’t get a definite answer so I thought I would ask here for the instructors. When I watch the pros play, some of them get directly behind the object ball and the pocket before they go back behind the cue ball to set up for the shot. Why do they do this? The only guess I have is that they are determining the contact point on the object ball. Thank you in advance for the reply’s.
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I thought this YouTube video about preshot by a golf instructor has some important perspectives.
 
Imac007 said:
Another interesting paper applicable to how we experience a cue as an extension.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0028393214000232
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I am currently writing a book about how we think and learn and act when it comes to playing pool. This paper you provided a link to coincides quite nicely with a lot of other research material I've been studying over the last few years.

I certainly don't believe pool players have to have a complete understanding of why we do what we do, but there are some things worth knowing that can drastically benefit players when it comes to learning and developing winning skills and habits.

The golf myth video of the PSR is a great example. The same method should be taught to pool players -- that the PSR should not involve checking your feet or stance or straightness of the elbow, or checking to ensure that your grip hand and bridge hand are positioned properly, etc.... These are fundamental things that are consciously worked on in practice, and such thoughts should not clutter the mind during performance.
 
BC21 said:
The golf myth video of the PSR is a great example. The same method should be taught to pool players -- that the PSR should not involve checking your feet or stance or straightness of the elbow, or checking to ensure that your grip hand and bridge hand are positioned properly, etc.... These are fundamental things that are consciously worked on in practice, and such thoughts should not clutter the mind during performance.
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I'd argue the point about the grip hand placement.

At least in my game (snooker based), I don't know absolutely where my grip hand should be until my bridge hand is down, and I've cue'd at least once to the CB. Only other way I could think to adjust the range of one's stroke after being down on the ball would be to adjust the bridge arm and alter stance.

I think for most players this grip hand adjustment would be very minor. However it really should be considered when in the most appropriate place to guage it's placement. Which would be when you're down on the shot.

The above assumes that everything prior to shooting the CB is apart of the PSR

YMMV
 
The_JV said:
I'd argue the point about the grip hand placement.

At least in my game (snooker based), I don't know absolutely where my grip hand should be until my bridge hand is down, and I've cue'd at least once to the CB. Only other way I could think to adjust the range of one's stroke after being down on the ball would be to adjust the bridge arm and alter stance.

I think for most players this grip hand adjustment would be very minor. However it really should be considered when in the most appropriate place to guage it's placement. Which would be when you're down on the shot.

The above assumes that everything prior to shooting the CB is apart of the PSR

YMMV
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I think the grip hand placement or adjustment is something that eventually just happens automatically as the player gains experience. I don't know about snooker, but as a pool player I can't remember the last time I consciously thought about my exact grip hand placement on any given shot. I'm sure when I was learning how to play I probably gave it some attention, but I don't think it's a thought process that usually occurs when we're down on the shot. I mean, I can't imagine being down on a shot and thinking, "Is my grip too far back?" Seems distracting. Of course, if it feels awkward enough to prompt that question, then standing back up and starting the shot over from the PSR is a good idea. But asking that question as part of the PSR seems a bit like micromanaging the process.
 
BC21 said:
I think the grip hand placement or adjustment is something that eventually just happens automatically as the player gains experience. I don't know about snooker, but as a pool player I can't remember the last time I consciously thought about my exact grip hand placement on any given shot. I'm sure when I was learning how to play I probably gave it some attention, but I don't think it's a thought process that usually occurs when we're down on the shot. I mean, I can't imagine being down on a shot and thinking, "Is my grip too far back?" Seems distracting. Of course, if it feels awkward enough to prompt that question, then standing back up and starting the shot over from the PSR is a good idea. But asking that question as part of the PSR seems a bit like micromanaging the process.
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My point was that you suggested that the grip should be a fore gone conclusion before getting down on the shot. In my particular case, it is not. How much attention I pay to it, is something I couldn't say, but I do know it is a variable that does get adjusted while down on the shot.
 
Cameron Smith said:
So, what it’s saying is, “be the ball”?
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In my mind it says we can embrace the sense of the cue being just one more way we can reach out and interact with our environment naturally.
Approaching the shot, with the cue moving down the line, connected, not disembodied.
Nothing foreign in our sense of execution.
If you can extend that sense of control to the cue ball, all the better.
Nothing like a cue ball on a string.
 
Imac007 said:
In my mind it says we can embrace the sense of the cue being just one more way we can reach out and interact with our environment naturally.
Approaching the shot, with the cue moving down the line, connected, not disembodied.
Nothing foreign in our sense of execution.
If you can extend that sense of control to the cue ball, all the better.
Nothing like a cue ball on a string.
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I think it is in a sense trying to describe what is happening when the cue ball is on a string. With practice and training, the mind incorporates the object that is manipulated by the tool into its sense of self. The cue ball and the cue become an extension of you in essence. I think this probably goes nicely with the concept of the flow state.
 
Cameron Smith said:
I think it is in a sense trying to describe what is happening when the cue ball is on a string. With practice and training, the mind incorporates the object that is manipulated by the tool into its sense of self. The cue ball and the cue become an extension of you in essence. I think this probably goes nicely with the concept of the flow state.
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We have to remind ourselves that we are taking the study results and trying to figure out a way to explain our analogically experience with a cue or how we might apply it to enjoy the benefits.
It gives us a way of examining those ideas.
The designed tests were not done with pool in mind.
We are just playing a game of ”what if”, with what they found.
 
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