Can't stay down.

B

brigeton

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've had this problem for years. Sometimes I play pretty well (for me) and other times play like crap, usually because I'm jumping up. Last night in my weekly tournament I shot pretty well in a few practice games then the first game of the tournament played like crap. Then I realized I was jumping up again and after that played better.
For a long time I could never recognize when I did it and would be left wondering why I was playing bad. I've gotten to the point now where I realize what I see or don't see when I jump up but it usually takes a few shots for it to dawn on me. It usually happens when I have a long shot I don't have a lot of confidence in. Apparently I jump up to see where the ball goes.
I think this is a pretty common problem. I have even seen pros miss because they didn't stay down properly but not very often.
So does anyone have any tips to help you stay down all the time?
 
I am also not an instructor, but this relates to something I introduced into my own game, so I'll share.

I made it a part of my shooting routine to focus on the movement of the cue until the end of the follow-through. (I did this for slightly different reasons to you, but I think it would have the effect you need.) To ensure you don't cheat on this, you can mark the moment the tip reaches the end of its follow-through, for example by clicking your tongue or saying 'there'. For me, this has the effect of solidifying the process.

On some level, I was psychologically treating the moment the tip hits ball as if it was the end of my stroke, which was causing a bad follow-through, and this fixed it. Maybe it'll work for you too.
 
brigeton said:
I've had this problem for years. Sometimes I play pretty well (for me) and other times play like crap, usually because I'm jumping up. Last night in my weekly tournament I shot pretty well in a few practice games then the first game of the tournament played like crap. Then I realized I was jumping up again and after that played better.
For a long time I could never recognize when I did it and would be left wondering why I was playing bad. I've gotten to the point now where I realize what I see or don't see when I jump up but it usually takes a few shots for it to dawn on me. It usually happens when I have a long shot I don't have a lot of confidence in. Apparently I jump up to see where the ball goes.
I think this is a pretty common problem. I have even seen pros miss because they didn't stay down properly but not very often.
So does anyone have any tips to help you stay down all the time?
Click to expand...

You have to develop the habit of staying down until the ob hits the pocket or the cb stops where you want to to stop.

Performance relies heavily on the habits we've developed, good and bad.

Oh, should also add this:
Habits are developed through repetition, sometimes conscious repetition and sometimes pure coincidence or happenstance, based on environment. We get triggered or cued to perform a routine that brings about a reward. But the "reward" isn't always good for us.

Anyway, to modify an existing bad habit requires deliberate conscious effort. The cue/trigger is the same, but when we consciously change the routine it will bring about a different reward. After enough deliberate/purposeful repetition of the new routine (doing it every day for about a month), conscious effort will typically no longer be needed, because the brain will have embedded the new/modified cue-routine-reward loop to memory. And then any time that old cue/trigger is recognized, the new routine and reward will follow automatically.

A good habit loop could look something like this...

Cue: Bending down into the shot

Routine: practice strokes, shooting the shot, following through, keeping your head still and eyes on the cb or ob until the ob hits the pocket or the cb comes to a stop.

Reward: consistency
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: bbb
Pin said:
... I made it a part of my shooting routine to focus on the movement of the cue until the end of the follow-through. (I did this for slightly different reasons to you, but I think it would have the effect you need.) To ensure you don't cheat on this, you can mark the moment the tip reaches the end of its follow-through, for example by clicking your tongue or saying 'there'. For me, this has the effect of solidifying the process. ...
Click to expand...
One thing that I have students try for stroke/mechanics problems is similar to that. I ask them to set up -- usually on a fairly easy shot to start with -- but not shoot until I say so. Then I ask them to be looking only at the ferrule during the whole stroke, back and through. We are hoping for a stroke that comes straight through and does not recoil -- just forward motion on the power stroke.

This is helpful on crooked strokes, poke strokes, recoil or "snake tongue" stokes, and rising up after the shot.

A somewhat simpler exercise is to work on where the tip finishes with normal eye pattern. A donut at the spot the tip should finish helps with this.
 
brigeton said:
I've had this problem for years. Sometimes I play pretty well (for me) and other times play like crap, usually because I'm jumping up. Last night in my weekly tournament I shot pretty well in a few practice games then the first game of the tournament played like crap. Then I realized I was jumping up again and after that played better.
For a long time I could never recognize when I did it and would be left wondering why I was playing bad. I've gotten to the point now where I realize what I see or don't see when I jump up but it usually takes a few shots for it to dawn on me. It usually happens when I have a long shot I don't have a lot of confidence in. Apparently I jump up to see where the ball goes.
I think this is a pretty common problem. I have even seen pros miss because they didn't stay down properly but not very often.
So does anyone have any tips to help you stay down all the time?
Click to expand...
The issue isn’t staying down or not. It’s moving your position somehow and not allowing your cue to strike the cueball properly. After the ball leaves the cue tip it’s irrelevent if you keep down or not.

The majority of players (me included) benefit by keeping down. A few (watch Alex Higgins) immediately pop up like a cork in water.

Anyways, I was taught a half century ago on the Snooker table…hit the cueball, keep still for one breath, then get up. Consciously take that breath. It’s a bit mechanical but worked for me. It’s the equivalent of doing some count or phrase when stroking the ball…consistent timing.

Alex Higgins: I cringe when I watch his style. However we was world champ and I was just a spectator.

 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Pin
Thanks for the replies. When I stay down I see the cb hit the contact point on the ob and the ball go in the pocket. When I miss I ask myself if I saw that and usually the answer is no. That means I didn't stay down. I have been practicing more and it's getting better.
 
brigeton said:
I have been practicing more and it's getting better.
Click to expand...
Not an instructor, but this is the only way, practice it consciously until it becomes an unconscious habit. Once it's a habit you don't have to focus on it as much, but if you find yourself jumping up, practice it consciously again for a tune up until it happens naturally again. The trouble is, most of us self taught players have decades of bad habits ingrained, meaning it will take a while to completely eliminate them. We may have to focus conscious attention on it for years until it's natural. If it's a league where you have a few drinks, this can also lead to you going back to old habits because they feel comfortable and it's harder to focus after a few. Calm and consistent should be what you're striving for, jumping up is neither.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Pin
Geosnookery said:
The issue isn’t staying down or not. It’s moving your position somehow and not allowing your cue to strike the cueball properly.
Click to expand...
To paraphrase you for clarity: staying down isn't important for its own sake, but it is important for preventing unwanted movement during your stroke.

pj
chgo
 
brigeton said:
I've had this problem for years. Sometimes I play pretty well (for me) and other times play like crap, usually because I'm jumping up. Last night in my weekly tournament I shot pretty well in a few practice games then the first game of the tournament played like crap. Then I realized I was jumping up again and after that played better.
For a long time I could never recognize when I did it and would be left wondering why I was playing bad. I've gotten to the point now where I realize what I see or don't see when I jump up but it usually takes a few shots for it to dawn on me. It usually happens when I have a long shot I don't have a lot of confidence in. Apparently I jump up to see where the ball goes.
I think this is a pretty common problem. I have even seen pros miss because they didn't stay down properly but not very often.
So does anyone have any tips to help you stay down all the time?
Click to expand...
You have got to practice staying down. I guarantee that you're not doing that right now. If it takes hours, days and weeks, then so be it, but if you don't practice it, you will never break the habit you are currently in. This is not something you can fix while you're playing someone. You need lots and lots of practice time to create a new habit.

Here's a clue: If you think you stayed down long enough, you probably didn't.
 
brigeton said:
I've had this problem for years. Sometimes I play pretty well (for me) and other times play like crap, usually because I'm jumping up. Last night in my weekly tournament I shot pretty well in a few practice games then the first game of the tournament played like crap. Then I realized I was jumping up again and after that played better.
For a long time I could never recognize when I did it and would be left wondering why I was playing bad. I've gotten to the point now where I realize what I see or don't see when I jump up but it usually takes a few shots for it to dawn on me. It usually happens when I have a long shot I don't have a lot of confidence in. Apparently I jump up to see where the ball goes.
I think this is a pretty common problem. I have even seen pros miss because they didn't stay down properly but not very often.
So does anyone have any tips to help you stay down all the time?
Click to expand...
Years ago while developing my game, the stay down mantra came up.
The answer chosen came through a technique called behavior modification.
It takes about 3 weeks to develop a habit.
For 3 weeks I spent an hour each day taking shots with the sole purpose of staying down.
I used tokens to reward myself.
I had a handful of tokens in one back pocket and every shot that I stayed down I transferred a token into the other back pocket.
After a hundred tokens I rewarded myself with a treat.
Three weeks later my impulse to get up was gone.

After being away from the game for decades I found the old issue was back.
This time a bio mechanical analysis was done.
Stand square an arms length from a wall with fingertips just touching the wall.
Push away from the wall.
It’s impossible, when fully extended.
It turns out that the full extension involves the shoulder joint.
If the space between the arm and the body are extended at the joint there is no space to push into.
Taking that to the table, a bridge arm anchored to the table can still push up.
If as part of anchoring the upper bridge arm shoulder drops fully, the joint space is extended.
That anchoring creates a situation where the player can’t get up without moving something else first.
The impulse to get up disappears within three weeks as you develop a habit of staying down.
Snooker legend Joe Davis’s description of the stance being anchored with the weight balanced forward onto the bridge arm and bridge gripping the cloth.
He basically created a position where getting up wasn’t possible without doing something else first.
 
Geosnookery said:
The issue isn’t staying down or not. It’s moving your position somehow and not allowing your cue to strike the cueball properly. After the ball leaves the cue tip it’s irrelevent if you keep down or not.

The majority of players (me included) benefit by keeping down. A few (watch Alex Higgins) immediately pop up like a cork in water.

Anyways, I was taught a half century ago on the Snooker table…hit the cueball, keep still for one breath, then get up. Consciously take that breath. It’s a bit mechanical but worked for me. It’s the equivalent of doing some count or phrase when stroking the ball…consistent timing.

Alex Higgins: I cringe when I watch his style. However we was world champ and I was just a spectator.

Click to expand...

A player who is in the habit of raising up just might raise up a touch to early every so often, causing their cue to possibly go offline just prior to striking the cb. That's the problem with raising up. Any inconsistency will cause an issue. Staying down, head still, is the most consistent thing to do to prevent miss-hitting the cb.
 
FranCrimi said:
You have got to practice staying down. I guarantee that you're not doing that right now. If it takes hours, days and weeks, then so be it, but if you don't practice it, you will never break the habit you are currently in. This is not something you can fix while you're playing someone. You need lots and lots of practice time to create a new habit.

Here's a clue: If you think you stayed down long enough, you probably didn't.
Click to expand...

Excellent post.

A good drill is to roll all the balls out on the table and shoot every ball straight into a pocket with ball in hand on each shot. Focus on stepping into the line and staying down until the ball drops into the pocket. Do this for 3 racks (45 shots) every day for 28 days. It's less than 30min per day, but it really will help develop a good habit of staying down for every shot.
 
Last edited:
Thanks again for the replies. Lately I've been doing a drill from Darren Appelton with a ball on the foot spot & a ball on the head spot and going back and forth. I'm getting better at it, concentrating on staying still. Some of the shots are pretty easy if my position is good but some can end up as long difficult cuts if my speed is off. I'll go back to doing some straight in drills also. I should clarify that I don't jump way up but don't stay still enough to make long shots.
 
brigeton said:
Thanks again for the replies. Lately I've been doing a drill from Darren Appelton with a ball on the foot spot & a ball on the head spot and going back and forth. I'm getting better at it, concentrating on staying still. Some of the shots are pretty easy if my position is good but some can end up as long difficult cuts if my speed is off. I'll go back to doing some straight in drills also. I should clarify that I don't jump way up but don't stay still enough to make long shots.
Click to expand...

I like the easy straight-in drills with a ball in hand cb no more than 2ft from the ob on every shot. This narrows the focus to what you really need to work on -- staying down.

When shooting long cut shots or long straight in shots, other factors can occupy the working area of the mind, whether you want them to or not. And this can muddy up your primary focus/concentration, which should be dialed into whatever skill or habit you're trying to develop.

Plus we tend to take the easiest shots for granted, slacking up or rushing through them on occasion. If you train yourself on these shots, from the psr to the follow through and staying down until the ball hits the pocket, the positive results (the reward) will become linked to the action (the consistent routine), and that'll carry over into every shot.

I guess what I'm saying is that if you want to work on a psr or your stroke or staying down or whatever, then that should be the main focus for that specific practice session. Eliminate or minimize any other variable that could clutter your mind, such as aiming cut shots or playing position. Focus on that stuff in a seperate practice session, preferably after you've developed a consistent stroke and consistent body mechanics.
 
brigeton said:
I've had this problem for years. Sometimes I play pretty well (for me) and other times play like crap, usually because I'm jumping up. Last night in my weekly tournament I shot pretty well in a few practice games then the first game of the tournament played like crap. Then I realized I was jumping up again and after that played better.
For a long time I could never recognize when I did it and would be left wondering why I was playing bad. I've gotten to the point now where I realize what I see or don't see when I jump up but it usually takes a few shots for it to dawn on me. It usually happens when I have a long shot I don't have a lot of confidence in. Apparently I jump up to see where the ball goes.
I think this is a pretty common problem. I have even seen pros miss because they didn't stay down properly but not very often.
So does anyone have any tips to help you stay down all the time?
Click to expand...
Another option involves the idea of starting with the end in mind.
While developing my stance I assumed a one handed position.
An interesting thing about that is when I bent I found bending From the hips worked better because it shifted my weight properly for keeping my balance.
Also without a bridge on the table I had no leverage for getting up.
Providing a passive bridge hand for the cue, starting from a one handed position, gives a feel for the start.
When you shift your mind to the end position, post stroke, the body should still be there with the stroke at its end and still passive.
Nothing but the cueing arm should be moving, or even feeling active during the stroke.
 
brigeton said:
I've had this problem for years. Sometimes I play pretty well (for me) and other times play like crap, usually because I'm jumping up. Last night in my weekly tournament I shot pretty well in a few practice games then the first game of the tournament played like crap. Then I realized I was jumping up again and after that played better.
For a long time I could never recognize when I did it and would be left wondering why I was playing bad. I've gotten to the point now where I realize what I see or don't see when I jump up but it usually takes a few shots for it to dawn on me. It usually happens when I have a long shot I don't have a lot of confidence in. Apparently I jump up to see where the ball goes.
I think this is a pretty common problem. I have even seen pros miss because they didn't stay down properly but not very often.
So does anyone have any tips to help you stay down all the time?
Click to expand...
Many players jump even higher/more often then they feel they do, after all, they are focused on the table and not body awareness. There IS a permanent/near-permanent cure.

Have a loved one hold a house cue lightly, so that it rests in the hair atop your head. This will solve much of the problem after an incredibly few missed shots.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top