So What Does One Do When They Don't Have a Decent Local Mechanic...?

[The_JV]

Alrighty..., the holidays are coming to a close and I simply didn't get what I wanted done to the table. However the wife is happy with the progress on other projects, so I'm calling it a win regardless...lol

I wiped off my old miter 'mappings' again, and started fresh. This included checking for square around the table once more.

For those not in the instant know of what's going on above. A quick dirty way to check for square is to follow the 3-4-5 rule. Short version: measure and mark a 3ft distance on one rail, then a 4ft distance on the adjacent rail. Then measure between those two points. If it's square (at 90 degrees to one another) then the final measured distance will be 5ft. This just barely works cleanly on a pool table. ...and in fact now that I think about it. I'm not sure it would have if my cushion rubber had been already mitered.

Anyways... You follow the above practice on the two halves of the table and if it checks out you can then reference each half to one another with measurement (length) and long rail alignment with a long straight edge.

After completing the above I marked out my miters for the final time and then double checked them by running through the numbers backward. Basically I did the math the way I did before, marked the rails. Then measured out the desired end result (4.5") and added the facing cross sectional number (x2) to that desired result. Everything checked out, so I put it to bed and will stop thinking about it...lol

Lastly, I need to verify my shelf depth. I use a combination of rules and square to preform the takes. Once again the old cloth bailed me out and gave me an easy means to mark out the end of the shelf.

The rule on the cushions is not only the marks but I'm using the point to point number of 4.5" (114.3mm) to be sure I had it right. The square is placed against the rule. The rule itself is 1.0156" in width (calling it 1"), so my measured shelf is ~1.125".

That's rather short compared to the Diamonds which seem to be ~2". I'm going to have to do some digging to determine a good downward angle for the shelf depth. Right now I'm thinking I may have to go all the way down to 12 degrees to keep these pockets not playing like vacuums.

Something I haven't been able to find is whether or not the downward angle of the side pockets should be the same as the corners...? If I put a straight edge across the gap along the rail, the shelf end is outside of that reference. Which has me wondering if the downward angle is as improtant on this pocket.

 

[coolidge]

I've never personally tested one but the demonstrations are impressive. Table saws are pretty dangerous. Even with the pusher stick, you are still moving towards fast moving sharp things.

They will lop off a finger in a fraction of a second. Both my grandfather and great grandfather cut off their thumb later in life after a lifetime of safe woodworking prior. I'm safety first in the shop I stay frosty when using machinery, still it's nice to have some additional insurance.

I wasn't NOT impressed by the smaller more flimsy PCS model Sawstop but the ICS (industrial cabinet saw) model I purchased has beefier cast iron that's locked together solid by the steel rails. Fit and finish is incredibly good. Not as beefy as my former 12 inch table saw which was an absolute monster but quite respectable. The ICS in comparison is much smoother and a lot quieter.

 

[tomatoshooter]

Pretty sure it's expensive to test, my brother has one, said if you put a hot dog in it it stops, problem is, the blade is sacrificed. Worth it to save a finger, not the hot dog.

Is anything else sacrificed besides the blade and the brake? It's a pretty violent stop. I guess they have figured out how to avoid false triggers, I've never heard of them being a problem.

 

[realkingcobra]

Pretty sure it's expensive to test, my brother has one, said if you put a hot dog in it it stops, problem is, the blade is sacrificed. Worth it to save a finger, not the hot dog.

Not the blade the safety shear pin, about $90 to replace.

 

[The_JV]

Is anything else sacrificed besides the blade and the brake? It's a pretty violent stop. I guess they have figured out how to avoid false triggers, I've never heard of them being a problem.

From what little I understand, SawStop's official recommendation is to replace the blade. However, if you're using something of quality and/or full kerf. Then the odds are your blade can be salvaged/QA'd by a professional sharpening service.

 

[tomatoshooter]

From what little I understand, SawStop's official recommendation is to replace the blade. However, if you're using something of quality and/or full kerf. Then the odds are your blade can be salvaged/QA'd by a professional sharpening service.

That's not bad. It looks like table saw blades run around $80-$150 and the brake is $90. $240 out of pocket is about the best case scenario when a finger meets a table saw blade. It's a shame they don't seem to have any lower priced options. When you get up to the big cabinet saws their prices seem close to comparable saws but when their cheapest saw is $1400 and the most expensive similar saw at Lowe's is $650...it's kind of ironic that the price difference will buy a pretty decent guitar.

 

[The_JV]

That's not bad. It looks like table saw blades run around $80-$150 and the brake is $90. $240 out of pocket is about the best case scenario when a finger meets a table saw blade. It's a shame they don't seem to have any lower priced options. When you get up to the big cabinet saws their prices seem close to comparable saws but when their cheapest saw is $1400 and the most expensive similar saw at Lowe's is $650...it's kind of ironic that the price difference will buy a pretty decent guitar.

I was fairly active on a woodworking forum when the Sawstop was first released. The grumbling about the price has never ceased.

Truth is, the inventor deserves to get paid and I hope he gets a healthy helping of the margin on those saws. If I recall the back story correctly. The inventor approached a handful of big players in the cabinet saw market and they opted to show him the door. Need to remember that the stopping mechanism is a one trick pony. In that it works for tablesaws and that's all. Having such a safety mech on only a company's TS when they also offer a host of other tools that can lop off a finger, is a law suit waiting to happen.

Can't recall if he ended up producing them himself or not, but he persevered and brought an industry changer to market, so I hope he can at least live comfortably.

On a side note. Do you know anything about determining a downward angle on a pocket miter...? Google is coming up dry on specific details. Secret sauce it seems...

 

[tomatoshooter]

Need to remember that the stopping mechanism is a one trick pony. In that it works from tablesaws and that's all. Having such a safety mech on only a company's TS when hey also offer a host of other tools that can lop off a finger is a law suit waiting to happen.

That's messed up about the lawsuit. I could see that stop being adapted to other things, at least stationary type tools. The fact is that the table saw needs it more than any other tool.

I don't think the price is bad, I believe he's selling a lot more saw than I'd get for $650. I just can't justify $1400 worth of table saw.

Downward angle on pocket miter? Yeah, I know but I'm forbidden to tell. Just kidding, Are you using a table saw, right? Tilt the blade to 12 degrees and then set your guide to 51 degrees for 141 degree pockets. I'm thinking of having the rail set so the bottom surface that sits on the slate is sitting on the table of your saw. I just measured the pockets on my table, I got 10 degrees, accounting for the felt and quick and dirty measurement, and the fact that my pockets don't appear unusual, aside from the 143 degree cut, a cut with a blade set at 12 degrees seems like the process. The 12 degrees is measured perpendicular to face of the pocket opening and the table.

If I have time tomorrow at work, I'll see if I can come up with a drawing that may be helpful. I'm measuring my table and have discovered that a combination square and a rafter square are not the most useful tools for measuring an assembled table. One thing I would do is set up the saw and get a 2 2X6s and cut the face and then set them on the table where the rails would go to see if they look normal. I had a table saw, I'd go ahead and rip the narrow face to simulate the underside of the cushion. The other thing would be to make a couple of "gauge" blocks so I can recreate the angles by laying the blade flat against them. You have a new deluxe saw so this is probably unnecessary but I've never trusted the degree markings. They may not be calibrated or I could be looking at it from a slight angle. If I lay the angled piece of wood or whatever against the fence and the blade is flush I know all my cuts will match.

What is the actual size of your playing surface? And what is the length of your rails to the flat perpendicular surface, end to end? And the depth of the rail from nose of cushion to back edge? Distance from nose of cushion to front of feather strip groove. It's hard for me to envision the best way to measure something when it's not in my hands.

 

[The_JV]

That's messed up about the lawsuit. I could see that stop being adapted to other things, at least stationary type tools. The fact is that the table saw needs it more than any other tool.

I wasn't saying there was a law suit, but in this day and age wherein you get sued for someone spilling coffee on themselves. You need to cover your ass. Blade stopping tech on only one type of saw within your catalog of machines opens the door. The big trick to the Sawstop is the use of the blade's momentum to drop itself. Really a byproduct of how the blade engages the wedge. Without the blade dropping/retracting away from the meaty tissue. It wouldn't be nearly as effective. I have no doubt a brake could be introduced to nearly any machine. However most wouldn't also present the convenient 'retraction' byproduct. Also keep in mind how much more difficult it would be to instantly stop a bandsaw's wheels for example/

Downward angle on pocket miter? Yeah, I know but I'm forbidden to tell. Just kidding, Are you using a table saw, right? Tilt the blade to 12 degrees and then set your guide to 51 degrees for 141 degree pockets. I'm thinking of having the rail set so the bottom surface that sits on the slate is sitting on the table of your saw. I just measured the pockets on my table, I got 10 degrees, accounting for the felt and quick and dirty measurement, and the fact that my pockets don't appear unusual, aside from the 143 degree cut, a cut with a blade set at 12 degrees seems like the process. The 12 degrees is measured perpendicular to face of the pocket opening and the table.

Nope using the mitersaw. My current TS is of decent jobsite quality but not remotely close to setup for such precise work. The number of 12 for the downward angle is 'the minimum' by WPA standards. Which I find a little funny because it's a number driven by shelf depth but the WPA doesn't seem to list that particular number in conjuction with downward angle. Basically reads that the shelf depth can be anywhere between 1" to 2.25", and the downward angle ranges from 12 to 15 degrees.

It seems as though I could use the magic number of 12 and be fine. If I split the range of 1 to 2.25 into four equal segments. I'd still be well within the range of use for 12 degree downward. Of course that's in the world of the WPA, which I only mildly care about. I've already taken liberties by using the smaller than acceptable 141 for my miters. I'm just wondering if going smaller to say 11 degrees will be a step toward a table that plays more akin to what I want, (unforgiving but fair).

I'm measuring my table and have discovered that a combination square and a rafter square are not the most useful tools for measuring an assembled table. One thing I would do is set up the saw and get a 2 2X6s and cut the face and then set them on the table where the rails would go to see if they look normal. I had a table saw, I'd go ahead and rip the narrow face to simulate the underside of the cushion. The other thing would be to make a couple of "gauge" blocks so I can recreate the angles by laying the blade flat against them. You have a new deluxe saw so this is probably unnecessary but I've never trusted the degree markings. They may not be calibrated or I could be looking at it from a slight angle. If I lay the angled piece of wood or whatever against the fence and the blade is flush I know all my cuts will match.

Good ideas above. What I can tell you is that I intend to set up my saw and take test cuts on scrap, and then measure those resulting cuts for angle accuracy. I did a ton of miter work on that new Makita during the holidays, and the one thing I have zero concerns about is it's repeatability. Being able to trust a machine is actually quite refreshing....lol

What is the actual size of your playing surface? And what is the length of your rails to the flat perpendicular surface, end to end? And the depth of the rail from nose of cushion to back edge? Distance from nose of cushion to front of feather strip groove. It's hard for me to envision the best way to measure something when it's not in my hands.

100x50, standard regulation 4.5x9fter, with K55 profile cushions.

 

[dendweller]

I'm just wondering if going smaller to say 11 degrees will be a step toward a table that plays more akin to what I want, (unforgiving but fair).

At 4.5" looking for unforgiving but fair, I wonder how 142 for a miter would play.

By the way, I know you aren't at the stage of investigating that, just wondering if anyone has tried it and how it turned out.

 

[TrxR]

I wasn't saying there was a law suit, but in this day and age wherein you get sued for someone spilling coffee on themselves. You need to cover your ass. Blade stopping tech on only one type of saw within your catalog of machines opens the door. The big trick to the Sawstop is the use of the blade's momentum to drop itself. Really a byproduct of how the blade engages the wedge. Without the blade dropping/retracting away from the meaty tissue. It wouldn't be nearly as effective. I have no doubt a brake could be introduced to nearly any machine. However most wouldn't also present the convenient 'retraction' byproduct. Also keep in mind how much more difficult it would be to instantly stop a bandsaw's wheels for example/

Nope using the mitersaw. My current TS is of decent jobsite quality but not remotely close to setup for such precise work. The number of 12 for the downward angle is 'the minimum' by WPA standards. Which I find a little funny because it's a number driven by shelf depth but the WPA doesn't seem to list that particular number in conjuction with downward angle. Basically reads that the shelf depth can be anywhere between 1" to 2.25", and the downward angle ranges from 12 to 15 degrees.

It seems as though I could use the magic number of 12 and be fine. If I split the range of 1 to 2.25 into four equal segments. I'd still be well within the range of use for 12 degree downward. Of course that's in the world of the WPA, which I only mildly care about. I've already taken liberties by using the smaller than acceptable 141 for my miters. I'm just wondering if going smaller to say 11 degrees will be a step toward a table that plays more akin to what I want, (unforgiving but fair).

Good ideas above. What I can tell you is that I intend to set up my saw and take test cuts on scrap, and then measure those resulting cuts for angle accuracy. I did a ton of miter work on that new Makita during the holidays, and the one thing I have zero concerns about is it's repeatability. Being able to trust a machine is actually quite refreshing....lol

100x50, standard regulation 4.5x9fter, with K55 profile cushions.

How are you cutting the 51 degree miter? Most Makitas only go to about 48 or so?

 

[The_JV]

At 4.5" looking for unforgiving but fair, I wonder how 142 for a miter would play.

By the way, I know you aren't at the stage of investigating that, just wondering if anyone has tried it and how it turned out.

I went with 141 based on the experience of the pro mechanics on the forum. Keep in mind that I'm also utilizing 60A neoprene facings which are softer (closer to cushion consistancy) than what the typical cloth stretcher would use.

My understanding is that the slightly steeper miter angle is to compensate for the softer facing material.

In theory, the combination of softer facings and 142 miter, would play more difficult than the same miter angle with harder/stiffer facing material.

 

[The_JV]

How are you cutting the 51 degree miter? Most Makitas only go to about 48 or so?

The Makita LS1019L swings to 60 in both directions

 

[TrxR]

The Makita LS1019L swings to 60 in both directions

Thanks

I've got an older Makita slide compound here and it's been a great saw.

In theory could the it not be flipped and cut at 39 degrees? Or it could be done on a table saw probably.

 

[The_JV]

Thanks

I've got an older Makita slide compound here and it's been a great saw.

In theory could the it not be flipped and cut at 39 degrees? Or it could be done on a table saw probably.

This is my first major Makita purchase. I've have a pair of battery drills for years now that have been great. Between my love for them and my distain for Dewalt. It boiled my choices down to the Makita and a Bosch glider. Form factor and dust control potential onthe Makita made it the winner. I'm extremely happy with the decision.

...and yes. It could be flipped and cut, or butted up the to fence perpendicular to it's length if you wanted. The big problem there, is you're not referencing the fence to the inside face (obviously). The 141(51) angle needs to be accurate to the cushion. It wouldn't be an impossible task to jig it up accurately, but it would be a ton of extra effort.

I wouldn't dream of making these cuts on a TS without a crosscut sled, and additional 'wing' support. Typical setup a cabinet maker would have.

I'm going to mount additional 2' of fence length in either direction to the mitersaw as well. You're going to want to reference that cushion face as best as possible.

 

[TrxR]

I went and looked at the saw and does 48 in one direction and 52 the other.

 

[dendweller]

I went and looked at the saw and does 48 in one direction and 52 the other.

If you're referring to the LS1019L, the makita site says it miters 0 to 60 degrees left and right.

Makita USA - Product Details -LS1019L

10" Dual-Bevel Sliding Compound Miter Saw with Laser

www.makitatools.com

 

[coolidge]

Is anything else sacrificed besides the blade and the brake? It's a pretty violent stop. I guess they have figured out how to avoid false triggers, I've never heard of them being a problem.

Your blade is highly likely to be scrap metal after a trigger. The teeth embed into an aluminum block.

If you're referring to the LS1019L, the makita site says it miters 0 to 60 degrees left and right.

Makita USA - Product Details -LS1019L

10" Dual-Bevel Sliding Compound Miter Saw with Laser

www.makitatools.com

He was referring to his older Makita.

 

[coolidge]

I have a Makita LS1019L inbound Wednesday.

 

[The_JV]

......so my measured shelf is ~1.125".

That's rather short compared to the Diamonds which seem to be ~2". I'm going to have to do some digging to determine a good downward angle for the shelf depth. Right now I'm thinking I may have to go all the way down to 12 degrees to keep these pockets not playing like vacuums.

Something I haven't been able to find is whether or not the downward angle of the side pockets should be the same as the corners...? If I put a straight edge across the gap along the rail, the shelf end is outside of that reference. Which has me wondering if the downward angle is as improtant on this pocket.

Alright, I think I've sorted my downward angles out. I wasn't able to find any 'resource' per say(?), so I went hunting within the spec's listed in Dr. Dave's TDF thread. Found the closest comparable to my own table's pocket shelf and reached out to the owner/member.

So based on their helpful-ness, I can say that my pocket specs will match the following:

• Corner:
  • Pocket size: 4.5"
  • Miter: 141*
  • Down angle: 12*
  • Shelf: 1.125"
• Side:
  • Pocket size: 5"
  • Miter: 103*
  • Down angle: 11*

All I have to sort out now is a means to extend my mitersaw's fence. It does provide provisions to bolt a sacrificial fence and/or extensions to the main fence. I just need to source the appropriately sized bolts and adequate fence material.