Bring Back Hustling Culture

I've only recently gotten serious about pool, and my experiences playing against anyone who will play me suggest to me that there's a real need for a niche between league play, tournaments, and casual games.
It seems like "hustling" is at the center of a lot of the romance and mystique of the game of pool. "Hustling" is not really the right word for what I'm talking about - Earl Strickland claimed that he wasn't a hustler, despite winning a lot of money on staked games - so by "hustling" I just mean wagering money on one's own skill.
The most famous pool movies are all about hustling, aren't they? The story of Earl Strickland from the Sky Sports documentary about his life is much more interesting than the stories of players who played a lot in grandpa's basement, joined a league, and then moved on to tournaments.
Tournaments, leagues, and casual play are all cool, but tournaments tend to be stuffy, leagues can sometimes be a bit cliquish, and casual players can sometimes be really annoying.
I go to some billiards halls here in Minnesota, and if anyone is placing stakes on games, it's extremely low-key, because I haven't seen it happen at all. Bar players will sometimes put some money down at bars, but not much, and I haven't found any bar where there's a culture of "betting" on games.
I think it would be really cool to see a table with a bunch of money on it, and a one-on-one game with more riding on the outcome than ego alone. As a novice player, I'd throw down a fiver here and there just for the opportunity to play someone who has dedicated himself or herself to mastering the game, and it would be thrilling if I actually won every once in awhile (which does happen sometimes - LOL). Playing anyone serious at a bar table typically costs at least $10/hour anyway, and hiring a coach is expensive as well - it's probably more expensive to be trained than by a coach than to be schooled by a hustler, if you keep the stakes low.
I think the decline of American talent in billiards is directly related to the decline of hustling culture in the USA - the incentive to master the game isn't what it once was, because being great at pool is no longer a ticket to a reasonably lucrative payday. Meanwhile, the Philippines has produced great players who came out of the hustling culture of that country, and I don't think that's a coincidence.
For a billiards hall to do it right, there would have to be clear, strict house rules for etiquette and the rules of the game, someone available to referee, and someone who could act as a bouncer, if needed. In some areas, there would need to be lobbying to change the laws to allow "betting" on pool. It would also be good to have certain "money" pool tables where seating is available nearby for interested onlookers to spectate - I think there are tons of people who would be interested in having a drink or a meal and watching top-level "hustlers" compete in money games.
While I personally dislike gambling, except for "betting" on oneself, the popularity of pool with the general public would likely skyrocket if spectators were also allowed to bet on games.
If there was a culture of hustling at pool halls, it would make playing for stakes much safer for all involved. A setup like the one I'm suggesting would likely evolve into great players playing against one another, but road players would show up sometimes, and every once in awhile some average player would get the courage to jump in for a game or two, and most likely lose, but maybe win (everybody gets lucky sometimes).
I think there are a lot of players who would at least put down five or ten bucks on a game, if the rules were clear and security was available - a quick glance at the cues being used at any billiards hall tells me that a lot of people are willing to spend a lot of money on upping their game. I've played quite a few excellent players who told me that the reason they don't "bet" on games is because they don't want to be involved in violent confrontations with hot-headed losers. I'd be willing to bet that if you eliminated the threat of violence or being robbed, and provided a referee to obviate arguments, you'd attract a lot of great players to money games, and then a culture of "hustling" would evolve that would increase the popularity of billiards halls and promote billiards in general.
Moral objections to "pool hustling" seem silly to me. If someone wants to put money down against me, I'd be an idiot to think that they're not trying to win money from me. Cheating is different, of course, and everyone should oppose cheating, but the art of the hustle is fair enough - if you think you have someone pegged as an inferior player, and you put money on that, then you're trying to hustle that person, and it's hustler vs. hustler, which is fair and square. If you're such a gullible rube that you honestly think a guy who is playing poorly suddenly wants to bet $100 out of sheer stupidity, you could probably use a reality check anyway, and it's not like you're being an angel yourself, if you're happy to skin someone who you think is stupid or drunk in the belief that you have a big advantage over him.
I'd also love to see more youth leagues, non-alcoholic leagues, family-friendly places to play pool, etc., but it's not a zero-sum game, and I think the soul of pool in America could be revitalized if a culture of "hustling" made a comeback in the USA.
Almost all current pool tournaments are basically stakes games anyway, and gambling is common in most areas of the country. Is it better for people to mindlessly open pull-tabs, fill out BINGO cards, push buttons on slot machines, or scratch off lottery tickets? Betting on pool is much more interesting on almost every level. Heck, betting on pool is even more environmentally-friendly than most other forms of gambling.
On technical issues, I would probably set up any betting system in a way that gives the state a bite in the form of sales taxes, donations to government organizations like first responders, or whatever. Otherwise I think there's a risk that Big Brother could get pissed off about small businesses competing with their gambling rackets (especially the state lottery), since the government likes to fleece citizens as much as they can get away with, and the house always wins. One clever move might be to convert 5% of overall winnings into lottery tickets when people cash out.
Willie Mosconi is great and all, but many of us would rather watch the ghost of Minnesota Fats practice the art of hustling than watch the ghost of Willie Mosconi silently clear racks in straight pool like a "true gentleman." Besides, Willie would probably never play any of us mere mortals, except maybe if we put some money on the table.
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Gambling: A player I know, of similar skillset and I match up and play a Race to 7 for $100 a set. Everything is above board. Reference: Fast Eddie matching up with Minnesota Fats.

Hustling: A player preys on a player of lessor skill while hiding his true speed in an attempt to steal. Reference: Fast Eddie playing 9B and getting his thumbs broken.

Two very different scenarios.
Your mistaken in one respect. When Eddie and Fats play, both players believe they can win. It requires the playing to see who is right.

In your second example the same scenario exists. Although player 1 pretty much is sure he can win where player 2 is not sure, but a good enough player to give a try and see.

Player 1's only hustle is trying to make the game happen. He feels protected by probablity. He is a good player and the chances this unknown player can beat him he feels is slim.

A big part of traveling and playing is overcoming the locals natural fear of a stranger. It may take some convincing to get them to play. Fact is though, the stranger still has no guarentee he will win.

A lot of locals sell themselves short. They are afraid to play anybody they don't know. I remember Wade Crane coming in my pool room and playing the kid that worked for me. The kid beat him for $1100.00 and he quit. I guess he was broke.
 
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OP

Bring Back Hustling Culture​


It never left, just sneakier with cell phones/cameras etc.
If you wanna make it in life and business, like the car business your a hustler/period.
 
OP

Bring Back Hustling Culture​


It never left, just sneakier with cell phones/cameras etc.
If you wanna make it in life and business, like the car business your a hustler/period.
The difference between a car salesman and a pool hustler is, with the car salesman there is an expectation of honesty/truth. With the pool hustler there is no such expectation, nor should there be.

You can say the same about the player being asked to play. I have no reason to believe he really needs the 5 ball. We are both taking a chance and have the option to quit if we don't like the game.

Now is the last part. Once in have idea how this is going to go, I want him to keep playing and then the stalling and so on takes place. However, it is unlikely I will be if ever playing my best.
 
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Your mistaken in one respect. When Eddie and Fats play, both players believe they can win. It requires the playing to see who is right.
In al scenarios both players think they can win. why would you play if you thought otherwise. When Eddie and Fats match up, both players feel they are of equal skill level although.

In your second example the same scenario exists. Although player 1 pretty much is sure he can win where player 2 is not sure, but a good enough player to give a try and see.
Eddie was not showing his true speed initially and only played his speed when the kid tried to rattle him. It was then abundantly clear Eddie was the superior player and was hiding his true speed initially in an effort to make an easy score. Why else would they break his thumbs?

Player 1's only hustle is trying to make the game happen. He feels protected by probablity. He is a good player and the chances this unknown player can beat him he feels is slim.
Primarily due to Eddie hiding his true speed (hustling).

A big part of traveling and playing is overcoming the locals natural fear of a stranger. It may take some convincing to get them to play. Fact is though, the stranger still has no guarentee he will win.

A lot of locals sell themselves short. They are afraid to play anybody they don't know. I remember Wade Crane coming in my pool room and playing the kid that worked for me. The kid beat him for $1100.00 and he quit. I guess he was broke.
The fear of being hustled on your home court is real.
 
didn't read the full OP but internet and social media killed all that and left a few shortstop junkies scrambling for each others lunch money, a small bunch of pro's arranging live streamed money matches with a gazillion dollars in the middle (if you believe it enough it's probably true, like WWE is for some), and some older nostalgiacs reminiscing about the good ole days. i don't really mind either, the latter can even be interesting if well written, but i personally prefer watching the best players win tough tournaments, and the occasional 1p money match.

recommended listen: scott frost in pool player podcast on how internet affected the pool scene
 
The thing in this thread I don't understand is some of the actual hateful nature of some of the posts. I think I know what it may be.
Players don't like being asked to play because they are afraid to play. It makes them feel inferior or something to say no.
They won't even ask for a spot afraid the guy may say yes.

. They can always just say they don't gamble but that is not honest. Because if they thought they had a lock they would be more then happy to gamble.
They are hypocrites.
 
The thing in this thread I don't understand is some of the actual hateful nature of some of the posts. I think I know what it may be.
Players don't like being asked to play because they are afraid to play. It makes them feel inferior or something to say no.
They won't even ask for a spot afraid the guy may say yes.

. They can always just say they don't gamble but that is not honest. Because if they thought they had a lock they would be more then happy to gamble.
They are hypocrites.
Not true at all in my instance and most likely many who have contributed to this thread. I gamble regularly and rarely "have the nuts". People do not like being taken advantage of or seeing new players taken advantage of by someone who is not forthright about their skill level and is only interested in deception to make a score. I don't think anyone has an issue with gambling, per se.
 
Not true at all in my instance and most likely many who have contributed to this thread. I gamble regularly and rarely "have the nuts". People do not like being taken advantage of or seeing new players taken advantage of by someone who is not forthright about their skill level and is only interested in deception to make a score. I don't think anyone has an issue with gambling, per se.
There can also be a cat and mouse game. I beat a lot of road players. Unless they have advanced info. they may find themselves on the short end.

The thing with a road player, if you get them in a bad game they will just quit. In most all cases they are getting odds on the money. They know they have no intentions of losing much. On the other hand, the guy they are playing may get his nose open and go off.
 
Not true at all in my instance and most likely many who have contributed to this thread. I gamble regularly and rarely "have the nuts". People do not like being taken advantage of or seeing new players taken advantage of by someone who is not forthright about their skill level and is only interested in deception to make a score. I don't think anyone has an issue with gambling, per se.
I used to never let it happen in my pool rooms, the guy who goes from table to table asking people to play. I just approach him and tell him if you looking to play we'll find you somebody to play.
Those kind of guys I don't even know how to classify in most cases they can't even play themselves.
 
Not true at all in my instance and most likely many who have contributed to this thread. I gamble regularly and rarely "have the nuts". People do not like being taken advantage of or seeing new players taken advantage of by someone who is not forthright about their skill level and is only interested in deception to make a score. I don't think anyone has an issue with gambling, per se.
The trouble with gambling on pool is, it is not like playing cards or betting on a dog race or football game. Pool is pretty decisive, the best player wins. It is not luck. If you play with friends it becomes evident quickly who are the better players. Kind of hard for the lesser player to gamble and keep donating. Best not to gamble at all among friends. Ring games and pill pool games are good for players of unequal skills to bet a few dollars.
 
The trouble with gambling on pool is, it is not like playing cards or betting on a dog race or football game. Pool is pretty decisive, the best player wins. It is not luck. If you play with friends it becomes evident quickly who are the better players. Kind of hard for the lesser player to gamble and keep donating. Best not to gamble at all among friends. Ring games and pill pool games are good for players of unequal skills to bet a few dollars.
I dunno, I've had my fair share of wins against higher rated players. It happens. Ring games are lots of fun with buddies. I especially like the trash talking.
 
Hustling exists because of greed & and easy money. Everyone love the stories of Hustlers, or the art of Hustling.😁

Until they are the victim, then they are not all smiles.😁
There are no victims unless you are talking about a dump. . As they say, "You can't cheat an honest man". The most common ploy of the hustler is to appear as the victim. That is when you see the greed come out and it isn't from the hustler.
 
I dunno, I've had my fair share of wins against higher rated players. It happens. Ring games are lots of fun with buddies. I especially like the trash talking.
Not over a period of time. If he is a regular in the pool room he will keep wanting to play. At a point you will have to decline. Pool can be a little like a foot race. The faster runner wins almost every time. He may stumble now and then but that will not change the overall outcome.
 
I think in the end, it is best for most players to not gamble at pool at all. It is fun to play, you can enter tournaments or play in leagues and enjoy the game. What really is the motivation to gamble on pool? You probably don't need the money and I am sure have no desire to lose your money. It can actually ruin the enjoyment of the game for you.

Not gambling at the game does not mean you have taken some moral stance. It just means you choose not to and if others like to gamble at it good for them. It is also not your place to judge.
 
There are no victims unless you are talking about a dump. . As they say, "You can't cheat an honest man". The most common ploy of the hustler is to appear as the victim. That is when you see the greed come out and it isn't from the hustler.

I remember Hollyweird do several film about Conmen, and Grifters. All were were entertains.

But as you said you can not cheat an honest person.
 
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