Bring Back Hustling Culture

Its as simple as adderol and subtractoroll, dont smoke good hooch and sit down at your keyboard! Anyway, like the guy said "Do you play for money? Where? When?" I think that about covers it! I still have a gripe about the sterilized and uninteresting tournament culture, but bucket: noone cares or theyd have figured out a better way. 😃
 
buckshotshoey said:
You obviously dont understand hustling. Hustling isnt just about gambling. Hustling is hiding your true ability, and winning just barely enough so your opponent wants to play again and again.

Earl Strickland never tried to hide his ability (that im aware of), so he wasnt a hustler. He would just kick your ass as hard as he could.
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And whine like a mofo if he was 'grouchy!' Im glad The Pearl is part of the American Arsenal though, i mean anything beats the limp handshakers of today, no matter how technically proficient they might be. Signed, another old guy
 
Brookeland Bill said:
Hustling? It’s been romanticized much like the Wild West and the Mafia. There’s no future ini it. Never has been. I’ve never seen a rad man living in Beverly Hills or staying at the Plaza in New York.
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Many guys have parlayed what was gambling money into a better life. I know one guy owns a really large successful welding shop and it was started with money he won gambling.

Gambling money a lot of times can be a means to an end. Particularly if you have nothing to start with. We're not talking about degenerate gamblers who lose their mortgage payments we're talking about calculating players who often have a goal.
 
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buckshotshoey said:
If I lost $300, my house payment wouldn't get paid for the month. We are definitely in different boats.... you are the Yahoo in the yacht, I'm the douche in a dinghy.
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Where I live everything is expensive. Where I used to live $300 was a big number as well. I wasn’t happy that’s for sure. Last 4 sessions about 11-12 hours of action I’m down the $300 total. Was even going into yesterday. I look at it as one big continuous session. I’m very close to even over the last couple years with this guy.
 
garczar said:
How many of you folks on here have played this game to eat? Ever been in a spot where getting the $$ was the difference in eating/going hungry or going to a motel vs. sleeping in your car?? If not you have zero frame of reference when it comes to hustling. I can't believe i'm agreeing with cocoloco but he's 100% right, hustlers often get games with those that think they're doing the hustling. I've been on both sides, the trapper and the trapee. If someone laid it down good and got me i wasn't mad, i was impressed and tried to learn their schtick/moves. Part of the game. Its fading away and its too bad imo. Pool is losing its color/excitement in a lot of ways. Too many clinical, robotic players for me.
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So the hood rat that that tells you you are going to give him your watch or he is taking it, coz he has hungry babies at home is justified?

If not justified, entertainment?
 
Black-Balled said:
So the hood rat that that tells you you are going to give him your watch or he is taking it, coz he has hungry babies at home is justified?

If not justified, entertainment?
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I carry so either way the hood rat is getting capped. ;) I don't think hustling pool is on the same planet as getting robbed on the street.
 
Minnesota Phat said:
I've only recently gotten serious about pool, and my experiences playing against anyone who will play me suggest to me that there's a real need for a niche between league play, tournaments, and casual games.
It seems like "hustling" is at the center of a lot of the romance and mystique of the game of pool. "Hustling" is not really the right word for what I'm talking about - Earl Strickland claimed that he wasn't a hustler, despite winning a lot of money on staked games - so by "hustling" I just mean wagering money on one's own skill.
The most famous pool movies are all about hustling, aren't they? The story of Earl Strickland from the Sky Sports documentary about his life is much more interesting than the stories of players who played a lot in grandpa's basement, joined a league, and then moved on to tournaments.
Tournaments, leagues, and casual play are all cool, but tournaments tend to be stuffy, leagues can sometimes be a bit cliquish, and casual players can sometimes be really annoying.
I go to some billiards halls here in Minnesota, and if anyone is placing stakes on games, it's extremely low-key, because I haven't seen it happen at all. Bar players will sometimes put some money down at bars, but not much, and I haven't found any bar where there's a culture of "betting" on games.
I think it would be really cool to see a table with a bunch of money on it, and a one-on-one game with more riding on the outcome than ego alone. As a novice player, I'd throw down a fiver here and there just for the opportunity to play someone who has dedicated himself or herself to mastering the game, and it would be thrilling if I actually won every once in awhile (which does happen sometimes - LOL). Playing anyone serious at a bar table typically costs at least $10/hour anyway, and hiring a coach is expensive as well - it's probably more expensive to be trained than by a coach than to be schooled by a hustler, if you keep the stakes low.
I think the decline of American talent in billiards is directly related to the decline of hustling culture in the USA - the incentive to master the game isn't what it once was, because being great at pool is no longer a ticket to a reasonably lucrative payday. Meanwhile, the Philippines has produced great players who came out of the hustling culture of that country, and I don't think that's a coincidence.
For a billiards hall to do it right, there would have to be clear, strict house rules for etiquette and the rules of the game, someone available to referee, and someone who could act as a bouncer, if needed. In some areas, there would need to be lobbying to change the laws to allow "betting" on pool. It would also be good to have certain "money" pool tables where seating is available nearby for interested onlookers to spectate - I think there are tons of people who would be interested in having a drink or a meal and watching top-level "hustlers" compete in money games.
While I personally dislike gambling, except for "betting" on oneself, the popularity of pool with the general public would likely skyrocket if spectators were also allowed to bet on games.
If there was a culture of hustling at pool halls, it would make playing for stakes much safer for all involved. A setup like the one I'm suggesting would likely evolve into great players playing against one another, but road players would show up sometimes, and every once in awhile some average player would get the courage to jump in for a game or two, and most likely lose, but maybe win (everybody gets lucky sometimes).
I think there are a lot of players who would at least put down five or ten bucks on a game, if the rules were clear and security was available - a quick glance at the cues being used at any billiards hall tells me that a lot of people are willing to spend a lot of money on upping their game. I've played quite a few excellent players who told me that the reason they don't "bet" on games is because they don't want to be involved in violent confrontations with hot-headed losers. I'd be willing to bet that if you eliminated the threat of violence or being robbed, and provided a referee to obviate arguments, you'd attract a lot of great players to money games, and then a culture of "hustling" would evolve that would increase the popularity of billiards halls and promote billiards in general.
Moral objections to "pool hustling" seem silly to me. If someone wants to put money down against me, I'd be an idiot to think that they're not trying to win money from me. Cheating is different, of course, and everyone should oppose cheating, but the art of the hustle is fair enough - if you think you have someone pegged as an inferior player, and you put money on that, then you're trying to hustle that person, and it's hustler vs. hustler, which is fair and square. If you're such a gullible rube that you honestly think a guy who is playing poorly suddenly wants to bet $100 out of sheer stupidity, you could probably use a reality check anyway, and it's not like you're being an angel yourself, if you're happy to skin someone who you think is stupid or drunk in the belief that you have a big advantage over him.
I'd also love to see more youth leagues, non-alcoholic leagues, family-friendly places to play pool, etc., but it's not a zero-sum game, and I think the soul of pool in America could be revitalized if a culture of "hustling" made a comeback in the USA.
Almost all current pool tournaments are basically stakes games anyway, and gambling is common in most areas of the country. Is it better for people to mindlessly open pull-tabs, fill out BINGO cards, push buttons on slot machines, or scratch off lottery tickets? Betting on pool is much more interesting on almost every level. Heck, betting on pool is even more environmentally-friendly than most other forms of gambling.
On technical issues, I would probably set up any betting system in a way that gives the state a bite in the form of sales taxes, donations to government organizations like first responders, or whatever. Otherwise I think there's a risk that Big Brother could get pissed off about small businesses competing with their gambling rackets (especially the state lottery), since the government likes to fleece citizens as much as they can get away with, and the house always wins. One clever move might be to convert 5% of overall winnings into lottery tickets when people cash out.
Willie Mosconi is great and all, but many of us would rather watch the ghost of Minnesota Fats practice the art of hustling than watch the ghost of Willie Mosconi silently clear racks in straight pool like a "true gentleman." Besides, Willie would probably never play any of us mere mortals, except maybe if we put some money on the table.
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I spoke with Earl yesterday. Was a few of us on a call. I’ve spoke to Earl many times over the years. One thing I can say about Earl-he’s never misrepresented how good he is at pool.

Earls never been on the stall, he will tell the world how good he is. Rightfully so. He’s amazing. Always has been.

Also he’s always and I mean always been respectful and a gentleman to me every time we speak. Earl don’t hold nothing back-I respect that.

Best
Fstboy
 
[[note: I have corrected a few typos {"Tevis", not Tevas} fixed 2 or 3 grammatical "oops", and added a line or two]]

Mr. Phat ...

Unlike others replying to your post I want to treat you with respect whilst "agreeing to disagree" and why I disagree ...

For others on this thread, be forewarned that I am not a "sound bite bonehead" [i.e., I am "loquacious"] as so many people are in the age of "digital dementia" and ...

Now, on with my reply ...

Here's a little background for our new newbie ... The 1961 movie "The Hustler" starring legends Jackie Geason and Paul Newman was [and remains] a fantastic movie for many reasons. The sequel "The Color of Money" is a goodmovie, too, but not in the same "class" as the 1st. Both are based upon books [of the same titles] by Mr. Walter Tevis. [before I move on ... [1] I recommend reading both of them and [2] I suggest you "google" to read what the author, Mr. Tevis, said long before he passed away about the con-man [possessing only "middling" billiard skills] named "Rudolf Wanderone" who appropriated the name Minnesota Fats by claiming to be the "real deal" upon which he had based HIS Jackie Gleason character Minnesota Fats in order to "make bank" ... which is the primary goal of any "self disrespecting" conman]

Mr. Tevis set out to document the "hustler culture" of the depression era. It was a world of "lifetime bachelors" who "took to the felt" to eke out a living during the 25+% unemployment era between the "great depression" and the "great war, WWII". It was a very entertaining movie, especially with Hollywood's treatment. However, while Hollywood likes drama, it didn't bastardize the story just to make it a "melodrama".

Next, the impact on the billiards world in the 60's, 70's ...

Within 5 years [+/-] the number of billiard parlors in America more than doubled as millions of people wanted to learn and play billiards. Most of these fledgling billiards fans weren't looking to "pay the rent" or provide a boost to their fragile egos, they simply were fascinated by the "game" and wanted to give it a try heading out to "family billiard parlors in droves". Many others bought a table and put in their home. As another decade came and went the number of billiard parlors started to decline [precipitously, although not as quickly as the earlier meteoric rise had been] and it's been on the decline [in periodic "ups & downs"] since then other than in the move to bars & bar tables, etc., along with the "lifetime bachelor" culture migrating along with it]

Many of the home tables were long gone in 5 - 10 years once their kids were out of the house and/or lost interest. My belief is that the declineat home was fueled in large part by the lack of training and instructional resources and opportunities since the sharks in the "hustler" culture [that was still percolating] were NOT interested in educating the newbies, they were [and many still are] very interested in fleecing the newbies. It pays better! And, it feeds the fragile egos of a significant percentage of them.

Fast forward to the 90's ...

As I neared early retirement from my "professional, non-billiards" career, I returned to playing pool after a 20 year hiatus. After 2 years of 2-3 nights/week I had rebuilt my stroke and my "game" and reluctantly started play in a couple of amateur leagues. I wanted to "give back to the sport I loved" and so I started giving free lessons to my APA teammates and lobbied a couple of cue companies to "honor" me with dealership arrangements so that I could offer high quality ['tho "starter" priced as I never made more the $25 per stick, the cost of my time and effort simply to fulfill the order] cues to folks so they wouldn't have to struggle with the "proverbial" one-piece P.O.S. cues on the walls of the bars where they were going to play. I was willing to offer my friends in the BCA world cues [some entry level and some significantly higher value] at an unbelievable price, too. That said, I'm not in it for the money {obviously} and I remain "professional" and never violate the cue maker's MAP policies. [btw, I know there are very good one piece cues, but most bar owners' "pencils are way too sharp to spend an extra $10-15 per stick" for their "valued? customers" despite the fact that it is a "capital investment" that will last for 30 years in their establishment if reasonable care is taken with them. [btw, I hope a few bar owners "stumble upon" this thread].

While conversing with the owners and executives at the various cue companies, I learned THEIR opinions on the impact of the Walter Tevis movies on the world of billiards and their businesses ... Many of them thought the fantastic 1961 movie had become a cancer on the sport, as the back alley "Hustler" culture had limited the growth of their industry by turning off MANY folks that would love the sport itself but don't want to enter and/or remain in the "low life, lifetime bachelor" culture. However, as business people, they did want to stay in business and most were willing to sell billiard related products [cues, gloves, shirts, towels, tabletop cue caddies, cue cases, coin holders, etc. etc. adorned/awash with brand names and imagery with all sorts of predominantly "dark/black/evil" themes ie., hustler, goth, caskets, monsters, poisons, scary creatures, etc. AND etal ...

In fact the Sr. VP of one of the largest and best cuemakers {IMnsHO} said [back in the 90's, he's since retired and went into his own billiards related enterprise] that they didn't sponsor many billiards related events, etc other than youth organizations
because they didn't want to participate in promoting an image of the sport that kept the sport in the "dark ages" [btw, that's me "paraphrasing" his comments because it hadn't already become SO DEVASTATINGLY pervasive as many of today' brands didn't yet exist]

Fast forward to the 21st Century ...

I still play competitively but not "on the road", in the amateur leagues or for "face to face $$$, i.e., gambling". I'll play in tournaments that attract players of considerable skill but try to avoid most of the events populated by the "dick swinging culture" of the local mini-sharks. If I want to gamble, I'll play poker. I prefer private games for modest amounts as I'm looking for social outings and "intelligent conversation" with friends. Texas Hold'em? I'll go to one of the local "Native American" owned casinos from time to time. It's an "OK" format, but its also a "hustling" format [you can read about that if you know how to "google"] but, at least the house "rake" goes to help a "race" of Americans who had their homeland taken from them by the founders of the country we US citizens inhabit.

to Mr. Phat ...

I went to this effort for YOU ... It's from the "be careful what you wish for" lobe of my gray matter. I didn't go into depth on the not so subtle differences between "gambling" and "hustling". I'm pretty sure that as this thread fills out you'll learn if you listen.

BTW, I don't give a "fusty ruck" what most people think of me, but I do care what people that I respect "think of me", I listen to THEM carefully and occasionally adjust my thinking based upon what they share [then, I do what I think is best for me, humanity at large and Mother Earth [where "heaven" resides], but ... not necessarily in that order.

Welcome to the billiards community!

CA2C074D-6CE3-463D-A4A4-8F10BFB6FA67.jpeg
 
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WillieRackam said:
Mr. Phat ...

Unlike others replying to your post I want to treat you with respect whilst "agreeing to disagree" and why I disagree ...

For others on this thread, be forewarned that I am not a "sound bite bonehead" [i.e., I am "loquacious"] as so many people are in the age of "digital dementia" and ...

Now, on with my reply ...

Here's a little background for our new newbie ... The 1961 movie "The Hustler" starring legends Jackie Geason and Paul Newman was [and remains] a fantastic movie for many reasons. The sequel "The Color of Money" is a goodmovie, too, but not in the same "class" as the 1st. Both are based upon books [of the same titles] by Mr. Walter Tevas. [before I move on ... [1] I recommend reading both of them and [2] I suggest you "google" to read what the author, Mr. Tevas, said long before he passed away about the con-man [possessing only "middling" billiard skills] named "Rudolf Wanderone" having appropriated the name Minnesota Fats by claiming to be the "real deal" upon which Mr. Tevas based HIS Jackie Gleason character Minnesota Fats in order to "make bank" ... which is the primary goal of any "self disrespecting" conman]

Mr. Tevas set out to document the "hustler culture" of the depression era. It was a world of "lifetime bachelors" who "took to the felt" to eke out a living during the 25+% unemployment era between the "great depression" and the "great war, WWII". It was a very entertaining movie, especially with Hollywood's treatment. However, Hollywood likes drama and didn't bastardize the story just to make it a "melodrama".

Next, the impact on the billiards world in the 60's, 70's ...

Within 5 years [+/-] the number of billiard parlors in America more than doubled as millions of people wanted to learn and play billiards. Most of these fledgling billiards fans weren't looking to "pay the rent" or provide a boost to their fragile egos, they simply were fascinated by the "game" and wanted to give it a try heading out to "family billiard parlors in droves". As another decade came and went the number of billiard parlors started to decline [precipitously, although not as quickly as the earlier meteoric rise had been] and it's been on the decline [in periodic "ups & downs"] since then other than in the move to bars & bar tables, etc., along with the "lifetime bachelor" culture migrating along with it] My belief is that the decline was fueled in large part by the lack of training and instructional resources and opportunities since the sharks in the "hustler" culture [that was still percolating] weren't interested in educating the newbies, they were [and many still are] interested in fleecing the newbies. It pays better! And, it feeds the fragile egos of a significant percentage of them.

Fast forward to the 90's ...

As I neared early retirement from my "professional, non-billiards" career, I returned to playing pool after a 20 year hiatus. After 2 years of 2-3 nights/week I had rebuilt my stroke and my "game" and reluctantly started play in a couple of amateur leagues. I wanted to "give back to the sport I loved" and so I started giving free lessons to my APA teammates and lobbied a couple of cue companies to "honor" me with dealership arrangements so that I could offer high quality "starter" priced cues to folks so they wouldn't struggled the the "proverbial" one-piece P.O.S. cues on the walls of the bars where they were going to play. I was willing to offer my friends in the BCA world cues at an unbelievable price, too. That said, I'm not in it for the money {obviously} and I remain a "professional" and never violate the cue maker's MAP policies. [btw, I know there are very good one piece cues, but most bar owners' "pencils are way too sharp to spend an extra $10-15 per stick" for their "valued customers" [btw, I can be "snarky" as well as "loquacious"]. I hope a few bar owners "stumble upon" this thread.

While conversing with the owners and executives at the cue companies, I learned THEIR opinions on the impact of the Walter Tevas movies on the world of billiards and their businesses ... Many of them thought the 1961 movie had become a cancer on the sport, as the back alley "Hustler" culture had limited the growth of their industry by turning off MANY folks that would love the sport itself but don't want to enter and/or remain in the "low life, lifetime bachelor" culture. However, as business people, they want to stay in business and most were willing to sell billiard related products [cues, gloves, shirts, towels, tabletop cue caddies, cue cases, coin holders, etc. etc. adorned/awash with brand names and imagery with all sorts of predominantly "dark/black/evil" themes ie., hustler, goth, caskets, monsters, poisons, scary creatures, etc. AND etal ...

In fact the Sr. VP of one of the largest and best cuemakers {IMHO} said [back in the 90's, he's since retired and went into his own billiards related enterprise] that they didn't sponsor many billiards related events, etc other than youth organizations
because they didn't want to participate in promoting an image of the sport that kept the sport in the "dark ages" [btw, that's me "paraphrasing" his comments because it hadn't already become SO DEVASTATINGLY pervasive as many of today' brands didn't yet exist]

Fast forward to the 21st Century ...

I still play competitively but not "on the road", in the amateur leagues or for "face to face $$$, i.t., gambling". I'll play in tournaments that attract players of considerable skill but try to avoid the events populated by the "dick swinging culture" of the local mini-sharks. If I want to gamble, I'll play poker. I prefer private games for modest amounts as I'm looking for social outings and "intelligent conversation" with friends. Texas Hold'em? I'll go to one of the local "Native American" owned casinos from time to time. It's an "OK" format, but its also a "hustling" format but, at least the house "rake" goes to help a "race" of Americans who had their homeland taken from them by the founders of the country we US citizens inhabit.


to Mr. Phat ...

I went to this effort for YOU ... It's from the "be careful what you wish for" lobe of my gray matter.

BTW, I don't give a "fusty ruck" what most people think of me, but I do care what people that I respect "think of me", listen to THEM carefully and occasionally adjust my thinking based upon what they share [then, I do what I think is best for me, humanity at large and Mother Earth [where "heaven" resides], but ... not necessarily in that order.

Welcome to the billiards community!

View attachment 633159
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Wow can you write!

What I didn’t like about color of money is the movie is based on the “dump” which destroyed lots of action in pool. The 61 movie was about a guy who sucked it up went back and won.

The 86 dump movie didn’t do pool any long term favors. Sure the pool rooms all got busy for a couple years and there was some easy action. But that’s a short sighted success by any measure. It also made pool players look like coke heads.

The 61 come back and win after the girl dies movie was a more typical plot as movies go. No harm done. Except it made pool players appear to be drunks.

If a sport or game needs a movie, that activity needs help. Not just a movie.

Best
Fatboy

PS: I’d trade my pool game to write ½ as good as you do!
 
Fatboy said:
Wow can you write!

What I didn’t like about color of money is the movie is based on the “dump” which destroyed lots of action in pool. The 61 movie was about a guy who sucked it up went back and won.

The 86 dump movie didn’t do pool any long term favors. Sure the pool rooms all got busy for a couple years and there was some easy action. But that’s a short sighted success by any measure. It also made pool players look like coke heads.

The 61 come back and win after the girl dies movie was a more typical plot as movies go. No harm done. Except it made pool players appear to be drunks.

If a sport or game needs a movie, that activity needs help. Not just a movie.

Best
Fatboy

PS: I’d trade my pool game to write ½ as good as you do!
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Thanks, ...

Hey, I'll take all the compliments I can get ... I ain't proud. ✌️😎

I don't think the 86 movie was in any way nearly as good either. Never did, but as I've learned more about Tom Cruise {and Scientology} over the years I have no interest in his later work, nor want to revisit the stuff I did like the 1st time ... e.g., Top Gun was a fun movie.

Fast "WillieRackam" trivia fact ... I've been told MANY times that I look(ed) like Tom Skerritt aka Commander Mike "Viper" Metcalf in Top Gun. I've also been accused of looking like a few other actors, including Sam Elliot ... Once I was told by a pretty lady that I looked like Tom Selleck ... [funny, but didn't sound drunk as a skunk but she must have been].

I was once interviewed by the FBI for 4 fucking hours about a bank robbery in Nampa, ID [fyi, in a "case of mistaken identity"].

That whole cluster fuck is a RIOT to recount [and relive] and it has a pretty remote "Hollywood" connection. The "real" robbers were the real life characters in the movie The Falcon and the Snowman ...

That was Sean Penn's first major role [as the Snowman]. I apparently looked exactly like the real life Falcon back then [according to my lovely "future" ex-wife], played by Timothy Bottoms.

To sorta [there's more than I don't have time to share today] top it off, when the FBI agent in charge of the investigation of the famous string of over 10 bank robberies [the last of which was the seed for my cluster fuck interview] was interviewed after he retired my interview was mentioned [tho' not by name] on the front page of the Wall Street Journal.

Gotta run to my daily 1 hour practice session I'm playing in a 10 Ball Tourney tonight.

If you even wander out west I love to shoot a few rack with you.

Take care,

WillieRackam?
 
WillieRackam said:
Thanks, ...

Hey, I'll take all the compliments I can get ... I ain't proud. ✌️😎

I don't think the 86 movie was in any way nearly as good either. Never did, but as I've learned more about Tom Cruise {and Scientology} over the years I have no interest in his later work, nor want to revisit the stuff I did like the 1st time ... e.g., Top Gun was a fun movie.

Fast "WillieRackam" trivia fact ... I've been told MANY times that I look(ed) like Tom Skerritt aka Commander Mike "Viper" Metcalf in Top Gun. I've also been accused of looking like a few other actors, including Sam Elliot ... Once I was told by a pretty lady that I looked like Tom Selleck ... [funny, but didn't sound drunk as a skunk but she must have been].

I was once interviewed by the FBI for 4 fucking hours about a bank robbery in Nampa, ID [fyi, in a "case of mistaken identity"].

That whole cluster fuck is a RIOT to recount [and relive] and it has a pretty remote "Hollywood" connection. The "real" robbers were the real life characters in the movie The Falcon and the Snowman ...

That was Sean Penn's first major role [as the Snowman]. I apparently looked exactly like the real life Falcon back then [according to my lovely "future" ex-wife], played by Timothy Bottoms.

To sorta [there's more than I don't have time to share today] top it off, when the FBI agent in charge of the investigation of the famous string of over 10 bank robberies [the last of which was the seed for my cluster fuck interview] was interviewed after he retired my interview was mentioned [tho' not by name] on the front page of the Wall Street Journal.

Gotta run to my daily 1 hour practice session I'm playing in a 10 Ball Tourney tonight.

If you even wander out west I love to shoot a few rack with you.

Take care,

WillieRackam?
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I’ve never liked Tom Cruise he’s got a bad case of short man’s disease. Arrogant pushy bossy attitude it comes across in everything I’ve ever seen him in-not many movies. I can’t stand him.

He’s a prick in real life as well-living in LA I’ve met lots of people who known him or worked with him.

I’m ready to play, I haven’t hit a ball in years. I’m in LA

Best
Fatboy😀😀
 
btw, it's hard to tell WTF I look like in my profile pic with all of my fuzzy "Covid" fur [didn't wanted to croak just for a haircut]

a friend of mine is a "renaissance man" and one of his many talents is as a sketch artist. a little over a month ago, I "begged" him to give me an example of his artistry as a keepsake of our friendship. he offered to do a sketch of me. I said that would be great but I might feel a little sheepish hangin' it on the wall in my RV [I'm fully retired, except when I'm not] as it might look like I'm a wee bit "narcissistic" [but hey when you beg for a cookie its not polite to whine about getting an oatmeal cookie when you were hoping for a chocolate chip cookie]

But it's come in handy as a "selfie/avatar" for my exploits in the world of digital dementia.

He sketched that in under 5 minutes WHILE we chatted about something.

Here's an old pic from my Cuban Cigar Era ... I think I cleaned up pretty good back then. I'll get a trim before July rolls around. It hit 116 degrees last year in Portland, OR [fer chrissakes ...]

F35FAC57-C723-4394-B275-F2AE65B02C6C.jpeg
 
The foundation for our USA Pocket Billiards is gambling, That will Never go away, Much of what the man says makes sense but I'm not sure we are going to be here that much longer, I wish he could be right...
 
Guy Manges said:
The foundation for our USA Pocket Billiards is gambling, That will Never go away, Much of what the man says makes sense but I'm not sure we are going to be here that much longer, I wish he could be right...
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How do you describe "Foundation"? I would say the foundation is league play, tournaments as well as home and billiard room play. The gambling does not contribute to pool, It is just insendential to the sport.
 
middleofnowhere said:
How do you describe "Foundation"? I would say the foundation is league play, tournaments as well as home and billiard room play. The gambling does not contribute to pool, It is just insendential to the sport.
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League play is the current form of pool for the masses.

Pool was built on gambling-hence the name “pool” as in pooling money to bet.

I’ve played pool 40 years, I gamble. I’ve never played league pool ever. I’m not against it. Actually I endorse it as it keeps pool going. It sustains pool, it didn’t make or build pool.

Respectfully
Fatboy 🎰
 
Minnesota Phat said:
I've only recently gotten serious about pool, and my experiences playing against anyone who will play me suggest to me that there's a real need for a niche between league play, tournaments, and casual games.
It seems like "hustling" is at the center of a lot of the romance and mystique of the game of pool. "Hustling" is not really the right word for what I'm talking about - Earl Strickland claimed that he wasn't a hustler, despite winning a lot of money on staked games - so by "hustling" I just mean wagering money on one's own skill.
The most famous pool movies are all about hustling, aren't they? The story of Earl Strickland from the Sky Sports documentary about his life is much more interesting than the stories of players who played a lot in grandpa's basement, joined a league, and then moved on to tournaments.
Tournaments, leagues, and casual play are all cool, but tournaments tend to be stuffy, leagues can sometimes be a bit cliquish, and casual players can sometimes be really annoying.
I go to some billiards halls here in Minnesota, and if anyone is placing stakes on games, it's extremely low-key, because I haven't seen it happen at all. Bar players will sometimes put some money down at bars, but not much, and I haven't found any bar where there's a culture of "betting" on games.
I think it would be really cool to see a table with a bunch of money on it, and a one-on-one game with more riding on the outcome than ego alone. As a novice player, I'd throw down a fiver here and there just for the opportunity to play someone who has dedicated himself or herself to mastering the game, and it would be thrilling if I actually won every once in awhile (which does happen sometimes - LOL). Playing anyone serious at a bar table typically costs at least $10/hour anyway, and hiring a coach is expensive as well - it's probably more expensive to be trained than by a coach than to be schooled by a hustler, if you keep the stakes low.
I think the decline of American talent in billiards is directly related to the decline of hustling culture in the USA - the incentive to master the game isn't what it once was, because being great at pool is no longer a ticket to a reasonably lucrative payday. Meanwhile, the Philippines has produced great players who came out of the hustling culture of that country, and I don't think that's a coincidence.
For a billiards hall to do it right, there would have to be clear, strict house rules for etiquette and the rules of the game, someone available to referee, and someone who could act as a bouncer, if needed. In some areas, there would need to be lobbying to change the laws to allow "betting" on pool. It would also be good to have certain "money" pool tables where seating is available nearby for interested onlookers to spectate - I think there are tons of people who would be interested in having a drink or a meal and watching top-level "hustlers" compete in money games.
While I personally dislike gambling, except for "betting" on oneself, the popularity of pool with the general public would likely skyrocket if spectators were also allowed to bet on games.
If there was a culture of hustling at pool halls, it would make playing for stakes much safer for all involved. A setup like the one I'm suggesting would likely evolve into great players playing against one another, but road players would show up sometimes, and every once in awhile some average player would get the courage to jump in for a game or two, and most likely lose, but maybe win (everybody gets lucky sometimes).
I think there are a lot of players who would at least put down five or ten bucks on a game, if the rules were clear and security was available - a quick glance at the cues being used at any billiards hall tells me that a lot of people are willing to spend a lot of money on upping their game. I've played quite a few excellent players who told me that the reason they don't "bet" on games is because they don't want to be involved in violent confrontations with hot-headed losers. I'd be willing to bet that if you eliminated the threat of violence or being robbed, and provided a referee to obviate arguments, you'd attract a lot of great players to money games, and then a culture of "hustling" would evolve that would increase the popularity of billiards halls and promote billiards in general.
Moral objections to "pool hustling" seem silly to me. If someone wants to put money down against me, I'd be an idiot to think that they're not trying to win money from me. Cheating is different, of course, and everyone should oppose cheating, but the art of the hustle is fair enough - if you think you have someone pegged as an inferior player, and you put money on that, then you're trying to hustle that person, and it's hustler vs. hustler, which is fair and square. If you're such a gullible rube that you honestly think a guy who is playing poorly suddenly wants to bet $100 out of sheer stupidity, you could probably use a reality check anyway, and it's not like you're being an angel yourself, if you're happy to skin someone who you think is stupid or drunk in the belief that you have a big advantage over him.
I'd also love to see more youth leagues, non-alcoholic leagues, family-friendly places to play pool, etc., but it's not a zero-sum game, and I think the soul of pool in America could be revitalized if a culture of "hustling" made a comeback in the USA.
Almost all current pool tournaments are basically stakes games anyway, and gambling is common in most areas of the country. Is it better for people to mindlessly open pull-tabs, fill out BINGO cards, push buttons on slot machines, or scratch off lottery tickets? Betting on pool is much more interesting on almost every level. Heck, betting on pool is even more environmentally-friendly than most other forms of gambling.
On technical issues, I would probably set up any betting system in a way that gives the state a bite in the form of sales taxes, donations to government organizations like first responders, or whatever. Otherwise I think there's a risk that Big Brother could get pissed off about small businesses competing with their gambling rackets (especially the state lottery), since the government likes to fleece citizens as much as they can get away with, and the house always wins. One clever move might be to convert 5% of overall winnings into lottery tickets when people cash out.
Willie Mosconi is great and all, but many of us would rather watch the ghost of Minnesota Fats practice the art of hustling than watch the ghost of Willie Mosconi silently clear racks in straight pool like a "true gentleman." Besides, Willie would probably never play any of us mere mortals, except maybe if we put some money on the table.
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Totally agree and often drove Cole Dickson to Cochrane‘s in the city, before he had a DL. I loved watching Shorty and San Jose Dick bet big money.
 
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