Bring Back Hustling Culture

I’ve never liked Tom Cruise he’s got a bad case of short man’s disease. Arrogant pushy bossy attitude it comes across in everything I’ve ever seen him in-not many movies. I can’t stand him.

He’s a prick in real life as well-living in LA I’ve met lots of people who known him or worked with him.

I’m ready to play, I haven’t hit a ball in years. I’m in LA

Best
Fatboy😀😀
I am absolutely with you on that one! We know that the stick he used in The Color of Money wasnt a real Balabushka. If it was real, I would have taped a camera to the tip, and shoved it up his ass so far it could take a picture of his molars!
 
How many of you folks on here have played this game to eat?
Nope, and never will. I know how to take that $5 I would have had to put down on a game and turn it into food in just a few minutes.
Ever been in a spot where getting the $$ was the difference in eating/going hungry or going to a motel vs. sleeping in your car??
Nope, got a good education and worked my entire life, never taking a penny from anyone or any service.
If not you have zero frame of reference when it comes to hustling.
Of course I don't have a fame of reference, but that does not change my mind about the low-ness of lives who perform the hustle.
 
I grew up playin in the 60s & everybody in the poolroom bet something even if it was straight pool for the table time. After the hustler came out it really influenced the the resurgence of pool & the image of the pool hustler. Nowadays with the leagues etc. Its a whole different culture. I miss the old days when there was a magic feeling walking in a big time poolroom. I reckon we were all imagining being Paul Newman's "fast Eddie felson".lol
 
TL DR ; ) don’t mind my rant

I got that 8th grade education locked down!

I think that's part of why 9-5 work has never come easy or anything close. State mandated school is like training for the rat race, and I missed out on tons of that training and got to see what it’s like to be free. Tough to go back.

If you spend 8 hours a day doing something you don’t really like from 4-6 years old until 18, then go straight into a job, you never have a chance to know anything different. College kids get a taste of freedom and some lose it and go way off track and end up in Baltimore pawning their Xbox or worse.

Civilization has a goal, whether it knows it or not. That is to get to multiple planets so we don’t all die on one. That’s the whole reason our dna drives us to create these systems and bring minds together and give shelter to weaker but possibly smart people who can invent the stuff we need.

But there is a huge problem with the mindset that everyone needs to be under the same umbrella and participating in the endeavor. Communism is an extreme form of this. Hating on people who live outside the system is a slyly cultivated thing, meant to pressure, guilt, coerce you into compliance.

Though there is some merit hating on someone who’s being an active parasite and doing damage while giving nothing in return. They usually live in the system though and know alllll the rules and ways to get paid. SS, disability, welfare hustlers and the like.

Outlaw type folks who don’t want to participate in the system have no real choice but to hustle or be parasitic in some way. Like a mosquito on the outside coming in for a bit of blood now and again until they get swatted. At least in America there’s not really another option. If we set aside a state or two outside of federal gov control, no grid, no wastewater treatment or trash pick up, no nothing. Just land and water and let people have that oasis to hunt, gather, live in peace or violence as they wish....that would be something. A lot of your hustlers would disappear into those borders.
 
League play is the current form of pool for the masses.

Pool was built on gambling-hence the name “pool” as in pooling money to bet.

I’ve played pool 40 years, I gamble. I’ve never played league pool ever. I’m not against it. Actually I endorse it as it keeps pool going. It sustains pool, it didn’t make or build pool.

Respectfully
Fatboy 🎰
Hey, Fatboy ...

Me again. I'm not disagreeing with your statement on the "etymology" of the word pooling as to how pool became the name for the game of billiards. That said ...

The origin of the game of billiards was [drum roll please] ... "croquet". It began in the mid 1500's as the French and other European ROYALTY wanted to play their beloved game indoors during the harsh winters. They had tables built [no pockets at the outset] and used mallets shaped like croquet mallets to bang the ball's through "hoops" on the tabletops.

The origin of the "modern?" cue came from how they would stroke the "cue" ball if was "up against the wall" and they couldn't successfully use the mallet end of their "club" so they turned the club around and "poked" the ball with the end of the handle.

Things have come a L-O-N-G way since then, and not just the advent of "pockets" and "felt", etc.

What started out as the "sport" of aristocracy [at one early point in the history of the game, it was even "illegal" for the huddling masses to play] has spent hundreds of year eventually becoming the sport of "lifetime bachelors", hustlers, beer guzzlers, dock workers, "Hollywood icons", etc. etc. etc.

And women ... ? Whilst many of "us" think that is a relatively new development, it's actually a case of "coming around, full circle" as one of the most famous early [as in "1500's" early] players was a women named Catherine [she was the actual "Queen" of HER country].

Disclaimer ... while I'm confident that the above has been well documented, I didn't retrace my earlier "research" this morning to make sure every little detail I've shared is "spot on" [pun intended, btw}
 
Hey, Fatboy ...

Me again. I'm not disagreeing with your statement on the "etymology" of the word pooling as to how pool became the name for the game of billiards. That said ...

The origin of the game of billiards was [drum roll please] ... "croquet". It began in the mid 1500's as the French and other European ROYALTY wanted to play their beloved game indoors during the harsh winters. They had tables built [no pockets at the outset] and used mallets shaped like croquet mallets to bang the ball's through "hoops" on the tabletops.

The origin of the "modern?" cue came from how they would stroke the "cue" ball if was "up against the wall" and they couldn't successfully use the mallet end of their "club" so they turned the club around and "poked" the ball with the end of the handle.

Things have come a L-O-N-G way since then, and not just the advent of "pockets" and "felt", etc.

What started out as the "sport" of aristocracy [at one early point in the history of the game, it was even "illegal" for the huddling masses to play] has spent hundreds of year eventually becoming the sport of "lifetime bachelors", hustlers, beer guzzlers, dock workers, "Hollywood icons", etc. etc. etc.

And women ... ? Whilst many of "us" think that is a relatively new development, it's actually a case of "coming around, full circle" as one of the most famous early [as in "1500's" early] players was a women named Catherine [she was the actual "Queen" of HER country].

Disclaimer ... while I'm confident that the above has been well documented, I didn't retrace my earlier "research" this morning to make sure every little detail I've shared is "spot on" [pun intended, btw}
That’s my understanding as well. Came from croquet on a rainy day in France. Couldn’t get wet, so a indoor version of a similar game was created.

Mallets were replaced by cues. I don’t recall the when advent of pockets in place of wickets occurred.

The word “pool” it is my understanding came during some period of economic hardship which was wide spread and work was limited so people gambled as a means to a end when there was little employment or money. Talk about tough action.

We still call it pool today, which is inaccurate as to the origins of the game.

Leagues are about the newest iteration of this sport.

And wow can you write. I need the 5 ball in writing from you!

Best and thanks, fun topic

Fatboy <——-missed history class as well😀
 
Pre Kindergarten or Kindergarten? 🤣😂🤣
3rd year of college.

First 2 I got my associates degree-useless

3rd I moved to Sacramento to attend Sac State. By then I was at the pool room 7 days a week, all day. Sleeping through classes and making my way. I was too proud to ask my mom and dad for $.

I was 20, old enough to support myself. I tried a job for 3 or 4 weeks as a cook at Great American Billiards-I ate good those 4 weeks and made $4/hour.

I worked a 8 hour shift one day. Locked up my $32 and smelled like pickles. After that shift I played a old guy a race to 9 for $50 and lost 9-6 or 9-7. I went into the bathroom, looked in the mirror. Did the math and realized I pissed away my $32 & 8 hours of my life and lost that because of 2 or 3 mistakes I made playing that set.

Walked out of the bathroom, called tails and won 9-3 or something like that. I ran over him like a bus. So now I’m even gambling and up $32 on the day which is approaching 12 hours.

Those numbers didn’t work for me.

I called tails again. He was done. We never played again. I never had a job again either where I traded my time for a fixed amount of money. Was a very defining day in my life. Was in 87.

School, I went through the motions and was on academic probation after that semester. I played that guy right when I started my 3rd year of school, by then I could play a little. I went full time pool. The 3rd year of school in Sacramento didn’t really happen as I was at the pool room, in Reno, LA, San Diego Bay Area playing pool. So after 2 semesters they were done with me. I was done with them after the 4th week of the first semester.

I never regretted my decision, I played pool. Until I didn’t. Because pool wasn’t profitable enough. I had higher goals and I wasn’t a champion. I played good enough not to work, but not good enough to live how I wanted. There never would have been enough $ in pool for me-looking back. Took me a while to realize that at the time.

Pool taught me a lot and all my successes in life tie back to pool one way or another. Am I a champion? Not even close. Am I a player, yes I am. I’m good, not great. Learning to pick spots in life was my best lesson from pool and my strong suit. Learned how to win and lose.

Gotta go to the eye Dr

Walk down memory lane to be continued……

Best Fatboy

Didn’t edit this-no time sorry 🕰⏰
 
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3rd year of college.

First 2 I got my associates degree-useless

3rd I moved to Sacramento to attend Sac State. By then I was at the pool room 7 days a week, all day. Sleeping through classes and making my way. I was too proud to ask my mom and dad for $.

I was 20, old enough to support myself. I tried a job for 3 or 4 weeks as a cook at Great American Billiards-I ate good those 4 weeks and made $4/hour.

I worked a 8 hour shift one day. Locked up my $32 and smelled like pickles. After that shift I played a old guy a race to 9 for $50 and lost 9-6 or 9-7. I went into the bathroom, looked in the mirror. Did the math and realized I pissed away my $32 & 8 hours of my life and lost that because of 2 or 3 mistakes I made playing that set.

Walked out of the bathroom, called tails and won 9-3 or something like that. I ran over him like a bus. So now I’m even gambling and up $32 on the day which is approaching 12 hours.

Those numbers didn’t work for me.

I called tails again. He was done. We never played again. I never had a job again either where I traded my time for a fixed amount of money. Was a very defining day in my life. Was in 87.

School, I went through the motions and was on academic probation after that semester. I played that guy right when I started my 3rd year of school, by then I could play a little. I went full time pool. The 3rd year of school in Sacramento didn’t really happen as I was at the pool room, in Reno, LA, San Diego Bay Area playing pool. So after 2 semesters they were done with me. I was done with them after the 4th week of the first semester.

I never regretted my decision, I played pool. Until I didn’t. Because pool wasn’t profitable enough. I had higher goals and I wasn’t a champion. I played good enough not to work, but not good enough to live how I wanted. There never would have been enough $ in pool for me-looking back. Took me a while to realize that at the time.

Pool taught me a lot and all my successes in life tie back to pool one way or another. Am I a champion? Not even close. Am I a player, yes I am. I’m good, not great. Learning to pick spots in life was my best lesson from pool and my strong suit. Learned how to win and lose.

Gotta go to the eye Dr

Walk down memory lane to be continued……

Best Fatboy

Didn’t edit this-no time sorry 🕰⏰
I spent a lot of time playing for money in high school, college and law school. Besides the competition and the money hanging around bars, pool halls and roadhouses taught me a lot about human nature and street smarts. There’s more than money to take from the pool environment. You learn a lot about people on the street that textbooks can’t touch.
 
I spent a lot of time playing for money in high school, college and law school. Besides the competition and the money hanging around bars, pool halls and roadhouses taught me a lot about human nature and street smarts. There’s more than money to take from the pool environment. You learn a lot about people on the street that textbooks can’t touch.
That’s exactly right.

School is good as formal education teaches problem solving skills of certain types. While the street teaches other problem solving skills.

Having a hybrid education of sorts is the most effective imo.

It’s served me well, the games not over for me. I’m 55 and still in action. Biz action. I took 10-11 years off and didn’t do anything. Last 1.5 years I’m back at it-but this is the last rodeo for me.

I’m ready in a year or 2 to relax travel, and not take on any new action short of gambling on pool, or what ever else I fancy. No more multimillion dollar biz decisions.

Best
Fatboy
 
I've only recently gotten serious about pool, and my experiences playing against anyone who will play me suggest to me that there's a real need for a niche between league play, tournaments, and casual games.
It seems like "hustling" is at the center of a lot of the romance and mystique of the game of pool. "Hustling" is not really the right word for what I'm talking about - Earl Strickland claimed that he wasn't a hustler, despite winning a lot of money on staked games - so by "hustling" I just mean wagering money on one's own skill.
The most famous pool movies are all about hustling, aren't they? The story of Earl Strickland from the Sky Sports documentary about his life is much more interesting than the stories of players who played a lot in grandpa's basement, joined a league, and then moved on to tournaments.
Tournaments, leagues, and casual play are all cool, but tournaments tend to be stuffy, leagues can sometimes be a bit cliquish, and casual players can sometimes be really annoying.
I go to some billiards halls here in Minnesota, and if anyone is placing stakes on games, it's extremely low-key, because I haven't seen it happen at all. Bar players will sometimes put some money down at bars, but not much, and I haven't found any bar where there's a culture of "betting" on games.
I think it would be really cool to see a table with a bunch of money on it, and a one-on-one game with more riding on the outcome than ego alone. As a novice player, I'd throw down a fiver here and there just for the opportunity to play someone who has dedicated himself or herself to mastering the game, and it would be thrilling if I actually won every once in awhile (which does happen sometimes - LOL). Playing anyone serious at a bar table typically costs at least $10/hour anyway, and hiring a coach is expensive as well - it's probably more expensive to be trained than by a coach than to be schooled by a hustler, if you keep the stakes low.
I think the decline of American talent in billiards is directly related to the decline of hustling culture in the USA - the incentive to master the game isn't what it once was, because being great at pool is no longer a ticket to a reasonably lucrative payday. Meanwhile, the Philippines has produced great players who came out of the hustling culture of that country, and I don't think that's a coincidence.
For a billiards hall to do it right, there would have to be clear, strict house rules for etiquette and the rules of the game, someone available to referee, and someone who could act as a bouncer, if needed. In some areas, there would need to be lobbying to change the laws to allow "betting" on pool. It would also be good to have certain "money" pool tables where seating is available nearby for interested onlookers to spectate - I think there are tons of people who would be interested in having a drink or a meal and watching top-level "hustlers" compete in money games.
While I personally dislike gambling, except for "betting" on oneself, the popularity of pool with the general public would likely skyrocket if spectators were also allowed to bet on games.
If there was a culture of hustling at pool halls, it would make playing for stakes much safer for all involved. A setup like the one I'm suggesting would likely evolve into great players playing against one another, but road players would show up sometimes, and every once in awhile some average player would get the courage to jump in for a game or two, and most likely lose, but maybe win (everybody gets lucky sometimes).
I think there are a lot of players who would at least put down five or ten bucks on a game, if the rules were clear and security was available - a quick glance at the cues being used at any billiards hall tells me that a lot of people are willing to spend a lot of money on upping their game. I've played quite a few excellent players who told me that the reason they don't "bet" on games is because they don't want to be involved in violent confrontations with hot-headed losers. I'd be willing to bet that if you eliminated the threat of violence or being robbed, and provided a referee to obviate arguments, you'd attract a lot of great players to money games, and then a culture of "hustling" would evolve that would increase the popularity of billiards halls and promote billiards in general.
Moral objections to "pool hustling" seem silly to me. If someone wants to put money down against me, I'd be an idiot to think that they're not trying to win money from me. Cheating is different, of course, and everyone should oppose cheating, but the art of the hustle is fair enough - if you think you have someone pegged as an inferior player, and you put money on that, then you're trying to hustle that person, and it's hustler vs. hustler, which is fair and square. If you're such a gullible rube that you honestly think a guy who is playing poorly suddenly wants to bet $100 out of sheer stupidity, you could probably use a reality check anyway, and it's not like you're being an angel yourself, if you're happy to skin someone who you think is stupid or drunk in the belief that you have a big advantage over him.
I'd also love to see more youth leagues, non-alcoholic leagues, family-friendly places to play pool, etc., but it's not a zero-sum game, and I think the soul of pool in America could be revitalized if a culture of "hustling" made a comeback in the USA.
Almost all current pool tournaments are basically stakes games anyway, and gambling is common in most areas of the country. Is it better for people to mindlessly open pull-tabs, fill out BINGO cards, push buttons on slot machines, or scratch off lottery tickets? Betting on pool is much more interesting on almost every level. Heck, betting on pool is even more environmentally-friendly than most other forms of gambling.
On technical issues, I would probably set up any betting system in a way that gives the state a bite in the form of sales taxes, donations to government organizations like first responders, or whatever. Otherwise I think there's a risk that Big Brother could get pissed off about small businesses competing with their gambling rackets (especially the state lottery), since the government likes to fleece citizens as much as they can get away with, and the house always wins. One clever move might be to convert 5% of overall winnings into lottery tickets when people cash out.
Willie Mosconi is great and all, but many of us would rather watch the ghost of Minnesota Fats practice the art of hustling than watch the ghost of Willie Mosconi silently clear racks in straight pool like a "true gentleman." Besides, Willie would probably never play any of us mere mortals, except maybe if we put some money on the table.
I read this as a search for action...good money games. Having watched 1 pocket for $5,000 a game, I get the idea.
 
how common is it for gambling matches to be played to a maximum loss ? Say, i have 20 bucks, and i’ll play you for $1 a game as long as you want until i’ve spent my 20 dollars.

Obviously this isn’t something you would do if you were trying to pull money out of the other guy, but for a friendly game, does this happen?

seems a good way to keep everything on the up and up between two gentlemen.

curious to hear the response to this, given everyones personal ruleset of moral conviction on action, gambling, hustling, conning, and all the thin lines in between.
 
I believe about 5% of hustling stories…and those 5% only because I’m a gullible person.

Pool and bars are full of folks who like to ‘exaggerate’. They all made so much cash that they are hawking dvd videos on ‘Secrets of Pool that Mosconi taught me and made me promise not to reveal until 20 years after his death’….all for $19.99.

Somehow I’ve managed to play billiards for 54 years around the world and never gambled a single pfennig, centime, cent or farthing.
 
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I am beginning to feel that the exposure and interests here at AZB are so divergent that Mike should consider two new sub-forums: Gambling Related and Non-Gambling Related.

I am struggling mightily to understand how some folks have had such little exposure to the gambling aspects of pool. Did they just jump in yesterday? Are there now pool venues with no, or very little, gambling? It is one thing to not participate in pool gambling but to be involved in pool and lack a fundamental understanding is another. Will someone please explain?
 
I believe about 5% of hustling stories…and those 5% only because I’m a gullible person.

Pool and bars are full of folks who like to ‘exaggerate’. They all made so much cash that they are hawking dvd videos on ‘Secrets of Pool that Mosconi taught me and made me promise not to reveal until 20 years after his death’….all for $19.99.

Somehow I’ve managed to play billiards for 54 years around the world and never gambled a single pfennig, centime, cent or farthing.
I know a few people who have never played for $ and that’s cool. I respect that. It’s not their thing and they can have fun with out action. I know a few people who don’t like how it feels to be in action and are great players. All good with me.

Then there’s the rest of the people who land on the spectrum somewhere between $1 a game to total degens betting everything. Most players loans in the middle somewhere.

I have always played for $. I only play for free if I’m with a friend who isn’t a pool player or at my house. In those settings I’ll play with out a bet and it’s a short session usually. Or when I’m playing alone working on my game I don’t gamble with myself 😉.

I’ve only lost the rent $ once. I’ve never been broke in my life, ever. I don’t have a addictive personality so I don’t struggle with not gambling. However, no action-I’ll go practice alone. Or not play at all as I’m just not interested enough in pool to play for free(when I was learning to play them it was different).

If it’s worth doing, it’s worth doing for money

Best
Fatboy
 
I am beginning to feel that the exposure and interests here at AZB are so divergent that Mike should consider two new sub-forums: Gambling Related and Non-Gambling Related.

I am struggling mightily to understand how some folks have had such little exposure to the gambling aspects of pool. Did they just jump in yesterday? Are there now pool venues with no, or very little, gambling? It is one thing to not participate in pool gambling but to be involved in pool and lack a fundamental understanding is another. Will someone please explain?
Sheltered existence of league players who demonize gambling while letting league corporations fleece them.
 
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