Shortening newly installed layered tips

Taking height off the tip reduces its mass.

No, it doesn't. In fact, it moves the heavy ferrule material closer to the end, so it increases the effective end mass.

When you delete part of the end, you have to add what replaces it. The first six inches, or so, is what contributes to deflection, and the closer to the end, the more the weight matters.
 
I have observed 'Cheapskates' like em' tall, pros and better players like em' short and dread change outs.

Just an observation, have a nice weekend

kat
 
I have observed 'Cheapskates' like em' tall, pros and better players like em' short and dread change outs.

Just an observation, have a nice weekend

kat

Well I find that Tip last more if you don’t grind up down, chalk is abrasive enough that it should scuff significantly .

If I need to scuff up 220 or 300 Grit Sandpaper is most friendly method.
 
Deflection and hit.

The less mass the end-less the deflection. Taking height off the tip reduces its mass.

As the tip gets thinner, it gets proportionately harder*.
After you pound the crap out of the tip the leather breaks down and it becomes proportionately softer.
A thinner tip does not become too soft, since you change it out before you pound the complete crap out of it.

(*) for exactly the same reason that shortening a spring makes it stiffer.
hahahahaha........... end mass??? a few layers of the tip are not measurable in mass..............
 
I have observed 'Cheapskates' like em' tall, pros and better players like em' short and dread change outs.

Just an observation, have a nice weekend

kat
My experience is, the tip plays the way I like just before it's done. The lower leather has less flex than a tall new tip. Think of a full eraser on a new pencil and how it bends sideways. Same effect. I get the best control just before it's time to cut it off. 🤷
 
If you have a good tip, letting it stand tall means you will have the same good tip for much longer. Scuffing with a gator grip just enough to clear the old spent chalk and lightly prep the leather and it will last a LONG time. I'm guessing my tip (Zan GripHard) will last at least a year with crazy amounts of play time. Maybe longer but only if the tip still feels like it has some life to it.

Sometimes tips need to be shortened to get them to feel right. If you are the type who shortens tips to get it to feel right, you need to use a harder tip.

One piece tips play best short partly because it makes them harder with less material to compress. You want them as hard as you can get them as long as they drink in the chalk. If your layered tip is hard enough the tall one plays like a good cut down single layer dud/le pro or something but instantly with no break in required.

Some people like super soft tips, but unless they change tips every 3 months they are playing with a medium after a while. Why not start with a medium and get used to how a tip should feel? Wouldn't it be better for it to be consistent from day 1 until you replace it much later?
That was my experience, but I started with medium.
My experience is, the tip plays the way I like just before it's done. The lower leather has less flex than a tall new tip. Think of a full eraser on a new pencil and how it bends sideways. Same effect. I get the best control just before it's time to cut it off. 🤷
I agree. I now play with a Moori Hard. It's more consistent when changing out tips, and throughout its life. And it lasts much longer.

I cannot compare the current Moori tips with the originals, but rest assured Moori still makes one hell of a tip for the money. Right around $10 to $12.
 
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No, it doesn't. In fact, it moves the heavy ferrule material closer to the end, so it increases the effective end mass.

When you delete part of the end, you have to add what replaces it. The first six inches, or so, is what contributes to deflection, and the closer to the end, the more the weight matters.
You are contradicting what prior posters have stated. And I agree with you. Leather is lighter than both ferrule and wood, so the end mass increases when you trim away some of the lighter leather. The end mass will be increased and deflection will increase. The increase in deflection could be measured but by a human being.
 
The less mass the end-less the deflection. Taking height off the tip reduces its mass.
As DeeDeeCues stated differently in post 21, you got the first sentence correct but you got the second sentence incorrect and in fact exactly backwards.

What affects deflection is the mass (weight) in the first six inches of shaft or so, with heavier weighing material causing more deflection. In most cases the leather cue tips are lighter than the shaft wood and ferrule material. So think of it this way. With a long tip, in that first six inches of shaft you have say .25 inches of tip (which is 4.2% of those first six inches), one inch of ferrule (which is 16.7% of those six inches), and 4.75 inches of shaft (which is 79.2% of those first six inches). With a short tip however, in that first six inches of shaft you have say one eighth inch of leather tip (2.1%), one inch of ferrule (16.7%), and 4.875 inches of shaft (81.3%). So with a long tip more of those six inches is a lighter material (4.2% compared to 2.1%) which in turn serves to lessen deflection since the overall weight of the first six inches decreases with a longer tip. As you shorten the tip then more and more of those six inches becomes heavier wood instead of leather and so the deflection naturally increases because the weight of those first six inches increases.

It is even more than that though. All of the six inches do not count the same. The closer it is to the tip of the shaft, the more that weight matters and the more it will affect deflection. Put another way, increasing the weight in the first quarter inch of the shaft will increase deflection more than if you had increased the weight in the second quarter inch by the same amount, and the second quarter inch back from the tip makes more difference than the third quarter inch back does, and so on all the way back to six inches back from the tip where added weight is having substantially less affect than it does when added nearer to the tip. The nearer to the tip you add or remove the weight, the more difference it makes to the deflection, and in the case of trimming your tip down short you are in effect increasing the weight where it matters the very most, in that very first quarter inch. Plus by shortening the tip you in effect just moved the heaviest material of all, the ferrule, even closer to the tip end by shifting it forward where it will now have slightly more affect on increasing deflection than it did when it was slightly further back.

Now whether shortening the tip from say a quarter inch to an eighth of an inch and shifting the ferrule slightly forward creates a meaningful amount of increase in deflection is debatable, but it definitely increases it because you are in effect replacing lighter leather with heavier wood as well as moving the heaviest ferrule material more forward. I would call it a reasonably inconsequential amount of deflection change in the scheme of things but somebody else might be a bit touchier about even small amounts of deflection increase and see that same amount as being much more substantial so to some extent it probably depends on how touchy one is about any changes in deflection.

For the record, the fact that every quarter inch of that first six inches than you can lighten up in some way makes a difference in reducing deflection (especially the nearer to the tip it is) is the reason that there has been a trend in making ferrules as short as possible instead of nice and long like they all used to be because wood is lighter than most ferrule materials and so the more of that heavier ferrule material you can get rid of the less deflection you will have.
 
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As DeeDeeCues stated differently in post 21, you got the first sentence correct but you got the second sentence incorrect and in fact exactly backwards.

What affects deflection is the mass (weight) in the first six inches of shaft or so, with heavier weighing material causing more deflection. In most cases the leather cue tips are lighter than the shaft wood and ferrule material. So think of it this way. With a long tip, in that first six inches of shaft you have say .25 inches of tip (which is 4.2% of those first six inches), one inch of ferrule (which is 16.7% of those six inches), and 4.75 inches of shaft (which is 79.2% of those first six inches). With a short tip however, in that first six inches of shaft you have say one eighth inch of leather tip (2.1%), one inch of ferrule (16.7%), and 4.875 inches of shaft (81.3%). So with a long tip more of those six inches is a lighter material (4.2% compared to 2.1%) which in turn serves to lessen deflection since the overall weight of the first six inches decreases with a longer tip. As you shorten the tip then more and more of those six inches becomes heavier wood instead of leather and so the deflection naturally increases because the weight of those first six inches increases.

It is even more than that though. All of the six inches do not count the same. The closer it is to the tip of the shaft, the more that weight matters and the more it will affect deflection. Put another way, increasing the weight in the first quarter inch of the shaft will increase deflection more than if you had increased the weight in the second quarter inch by the same amount, and the second quarter inch back from the tip makes more difference than the third quarter inch back does, and so on all the way back to six inches back from the tip where added weight is having substantially less affect than it does when added nearer to the tip. The nearer to the tip you add or remove the weight, the more difference it makes to the deflection, and in the case of trimming your tip down short you are in effect increasing the weight where it matters the very most, in that very first quarter inch. Plus by shortening the tip you in effect just moved the heaviest material of all, the ferrule, even closer to the tip end by shifting it forward where it will now have slightly more affect on increasing deflection than it did when it was slightly further back.

Now whether shortening the tip from say a quarter inch to an eighth of an inch and shifting the ferrule slightly forward creates a meaningful amount of increase in deflection is debatable, but it definitely increases it because you are in effect replacing lighter leather with heavier wood as well as moving the heaviest ferrule material more forward. I would call it a reasonably inconsequential amount of deflection change in the scheme of things but somebody else might be a bit touchier about even small amounts of deflection increase and see that same amount as being much more substantial so to some extent it probably depends on how touchy one is about any changes in deflection.

For the record, the fact that every quarter inch of that first six inches than you can lighten up in some way makes a difference in reducing deflection (especially the nearer to the tip it is) is the reason that there has been a trend in making ferrules as short as possible instead of nice and long like they all used to be because wood is lighter than most ferrule materials and so the more of that heavier ferrule material you can get rid of the less deflection you will have.
Should I get a six inch tip put on my cue? 😉😉😉😉
 
I do it for hit, comfort, confidence, etc. Meaning, with that much tip sticking out I'm always afraid the hit is going to be too soft (too much leather to compress) and that affects my play. I very much like a thin, flat tip (think 50 cent piece instead of a dime).

It also prevents serious mushrooming of tips.

Oh, and as Texax Carom says, they don't look right :)
 
its all in your head what feels the best. they basically all play the same.

so if you start with a tall tip it may feel softer to start. but once you get used to it it will feel natural. and as it gets worn down it will still feel that way as it wears so slowly.

a big reason a tall tip feels wrong is that your present tip you just cut off has worn down to being hard and compact and that is what you got used to. play with the tall tip on it for awile and adjust and use that one till it wears down to where you dont want it anymore.
 
Well I find that Tip last more if you don’t grind up down, chalk is abrasive enough that it should scuff significantly .

If I need to scuff up 220 or 300 Grit Sandpaper is most friendly method.

Agreed, I try to shape my tip on initial install then usually once after quite a bit of play. If it's mushroomed out I'll spin it round again and then reshape if needed, from there, I use a 30 year old tip tool (the aluminum two sided squares) that is pretty worn down so it doesn't affect the tip too much, just opens it enough to hold chalk.
 
As DeeDeeCues stated differently in post 21, you got the first sentence correct but you got the second sentence incorrect and in fact exactly backwards.

What affects deflection is the mass (weight) in the first six inches of shaft or so, with heavier weighing material causing more deflection. In most cases the leather cue tips are lighter than the shaft wood and ferrule material.
The point of flexure does not significantly change when you take a couple of mm off the tip--especially with low-deflection shafts.
Yes, this point of flexure is about 6" back on std maple shafts, and a bit farther back on low-deflection shafts

This is because::
a) the leather tip will move sideways under applied force (whereas the shaft won't, in any significant manner)
b) the flexure point is controlled by Young's modulus of the haft, the diameter of the shaft, and any hole bored in the shaft.
c) even the taper partially determine the actual point of flexure.
d) as you stated, the end-mass of the shaft vastly overweighs (sic) the mass of the tip
 
The point of flexure does not significantly change when you take a couple of mm off the tip--especially with low-deflection shafts.
Yes, this point of flexure is about 6" back on std maple shafts, and a bit farther back on low-deflection shafts

This is because::
a) the leather tip will move sideways under applied force (whereas the shaft won't, in any significant manner)
b) the flexure point is controlled by Young's modulus of the haft, the diameter of the shaft, and any hole bored in the shaft.
c) even the taper partially determine the actual point of flexure.
d) as you stated, the end-mass of the shaft vastly overweighs (sic) the mass of the tip
I don't believe half of what you stated here to be true or true in a way that would make any real difference here, but in any case it doesn't change the trueness of what I stated and you did have the effect backwards. You can't replace lighter leather with some other heavier material, especially near the very tip, and expect that the deflection won't increase. You also can't shift the very heaviest material (the ferrule) even nearer to the tip and expect that deflection won't increase. Both of those things are going to cause more deflection.
 
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I don't believe half of what you stated here to be true or true in a way that would make any real difference here, but in any case it doesn't change the trueness of what I stated and you did have the effect backwards. You can't replace lighter leather with some other heavier material, especially near the very tip, and expect that the deflection won't increase. You also can't shift the very heaviest material (the ferrule) even nearer to the tip and expect that deflection won't increase. Both of those things are going to cause more deflection.
How many years of physics and mechanical engineering did you take in grad school ?
 
I like the feel and timing of the hit when the tip is lower than a certain height. I don’t know exactly what that height is, but I can feel it when it’s too tall. It has nothing to do with squirt for me.
 
I like the feel and timing of the hit when the tip is lower than a certain height. I don’t know exactly what that height is, but I can feel it when it’s too tall. It has nothing to do with squirt for me.
Same here.
When you commit sound and feel to memory of your new tip, both changes after every sand reshaping.
Most players won't know what we're talking about, they're not 'In Tune' with it all.
 
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