Getting the cue on the line of aim

Patrick Johnson said:
No offense, but isn't this just your opinion? Dave (a recently retired Colorado State professor of engineering) is at least as expert in his field as you are in yours, and I believe he's spent much more time and concentration on this question.


And, as Dave points out, it's the main influence on vision center.

I think "vision center" just means the head position where straight looks straight. Don't you think head position is important?

pj
chgo
Click to expand...
What if there isn't a place where straight looks straight? I played for years where everything looked straight, but wasn't. I corrected that by positioning the eyes and cue in a place where straight didn't look straight but I knew was straight by use of a laser shining on the length of the cue and the cb/ob. Through repetition and positive reinforcement from successful shots, that position now looks straight. It's a stretch to say that is my true vision center. Nothing about the vision center concept would have helped me find where straight looks straight because I had already ingrained a "crooked looks straight" perspective.

In short, I think the whole idea of "vision center" needs work.
 
Dan White said:
What if there isn't a place where straight looks straight?
Click to expand...
Then I guess "vision center" isn't your cup of tea.

Dan White said:
I think the whole idea of "vision center" needs work.
Click to expand...
Not being able to make it work for you doesn't mean "the whole idea needs work". It works great for me and others (and makes good sense with what we know about eye dominance).

pj
chgo
 
Dan White said:
I corrected that by positioning the eyes and cue in a place where straight didn't look straight but I knew was straight by use of a laser shining on the length of the cue and the cb/ob.
Click to expand...
With the cue online using the laser, did you try to find a head position where that looked straight without "training"?

pj
chgo
 
Last edited:
Dan White said:
What if there isn't a place where straight looks straight? I played for years where everything looked straight, but wasn't. I corrected that by positioning the eyes and cue in a place where straight didn't look straight but I knew was straight by use of a laser shining on the length of the cue and the cb/ob. Through repetition and positive reinforcement from successful shots, that position now looks straight. It's a stretch to say that is my true vision center. Nothing about the vision center concept would have helped me find where straight looks straight because I had already ingrained a "crooked looks straight" perspective.

In short, I think the whole idea of "vision center" needs work.
Click to expand...
I been saying something similar regarding having learned to see the game a certain way. Difference is, I didn't discount the vision center idea...nor the dom. eye idea for that matter, tongue in cheeks jabs at fran aside lol. I know that since I've put in many thousands of hours looking down a cue a certain way, anything different (whether in a vision center or under dom. eye) will look wrong to me.
The real question is, is this stuff useful for new players that haven't learned to see the game any particular way? I would reckon it is.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Then I guess "vision center" isn't your cup of tea.


Not being able to make it work for you doesn't mean "the whole idea needs work". It works great for me and others (and makes good sense with what we know about eye dominance).

pj
chgo
Click to expand...
I think it does. If it wouldn't work for me then it wouldn't work for many other people. There's nothing remarkable about how I learned. The instructions for finding your vision center would have caused me to keep shooting the way I had been. Mind you, we're talking about a small error but it was enough for two people watching my stroke 10 years apart to say "you're lined up crooked."
 
Patrick Johnson said:
With the cue online using the laser, did you try to find a head position where that looked straight without "training"?

pj
chgo
Click to expand...
It's a funny thing. When there is a line there it seems like straight looks straight right away. Take away the line and it doesn't always look straight any more. What doesn't feel right necessarily is the arm movement needed to stroke along that line. It's a bit complicated, but I found "straight everything" by video feedback and lots of trial and error. This caused me to switch from lining up the inner left eye to lining up the inner right eye (non dominant eye). The reason for this is that I couldn't get my arm lined up over the cue and comfortable with my head in my natural position.

I only stumbled on to the laser idea after I had done all that work. It allowed me to fine tune my set up and learn what movements were good and necessary and which ones didn't matter. For instance, does turning the wrist this way or that way during the stroke move the cue off line? If I started with the laser right away it is possible that I would not have changed my head position, maybe just repositioning the body and arm to get on the straight laser line. I don't know. I do know it would have saved me 10 years but we can't cry over spilled milk. This is a hobby, not a job.
 
WobblyStroke said:
I been saying something similar regarding having learned to see the game a certain way. Difference is, I didn't discount the vision center idea...nor the dom. eye idea for that matter, tongue in cheeks jabs at fran aside lol. I know that since I've put in many thousands of hours looking down a cue a certain way, anything different (whether in a vision center or under dom. eye) will look wrong to me.
The real question is, is this stuff useful for new players that haven't learned to see the game any particular way? I would reckon it is.
Click to expand...
Probably so. I haven't spent hours thinking about "vision center" training. I just know it wouldn't have worked for me. I think the trick is to make 100% sure the ob/cb/entire cue is lined up straight when finding the "vision center" and this is harder to do than most realize. Even knowing center ball isn't so easy.
 
How's Geno Albrecht (sp) doing? His health wasn't the best. He used to post often here.

He helped my game a lot with his eye techniques and I saw him help many others, too, fwiw.


Jeff Livingston
 
Patrick Johnson said:
How so? What are those instructions?

pj
chgo
Click to expand...
IIRC One of the suggestions is to put the cue on the table along with 2 balls in a straight line. Unless you use a laser on the cue you very likely could have a problem when you pick up the cue. Also, once you have found this vision center there's nothing saying that you will be able to get your arm over the cue comfortably. Seeing straight as straight is only part of the issue. You also have to be able to draw the cue back on that straight line.

If you read Mark Wilson's book you'll see he does not subscribe to a vision center idea either. Where did the idea come from anyway?
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Can you quote what he says about it?
Click to expand...
He doesn't say anything about vision center. He talks about vision and dominant eyes but says that the cue should be placed underneath the chin in order to have a consistent reference point which is the most important thing. I don't do this because I already have a consistent routine.
Patrick Johnson said:
It came to me from Dr. Dave. I posted this before:

billiards.colostate.edu

Vision Center - Dr. Dave Pool Info

Answers to frequently-asked questions about how to find your personal 'vision center' in pool.
billiards.colostate.edu billiards.colostate.edu
Click to expand...
I'll take another look at that when I have a chance.
 
Dan White said:
It's a funny thing. When there is a line there it seems like straight looks straight right away. Take away the line and it doesn't always look straight any more. What doesn't feel right necessarily is the arm movement needed to stroke along that line. It's a bit complicated, but I found "straight everything" by video feedback and lots of trial and error. This caused me to switch from lining up the inner left eye to lining up the inner right eye (non dominant eye). The reason for this is that I couldn't get my arm lined up over the cue and comfortable with my head in my natural position.

I only stumbled on to the laser idea after I had done all that work. It allowed me to fine tune my set up and learn what movements were good and necessary and which ones didn't matter. For instance, does turning the wrist this way or that way during the stroke move the cue off line? If I started with the laser right away it is possible that I would not have changed my head position, maybe just repositioning the body and arm to get on the straight laser line. I don't know. I do know it would have saved me 10 years but we can't cry over spilled milk. This is a hobby, not a job.
Click to expand...
something interesting that i noticed is that you can find your ideal head position/vision centre (or whatever you want to call it), if you get down and place your chin on the cue without the balls and the pocket and move your head side to side until the cue looks straight.it's only when you introduce the balls and the pocket that the optical illusions start to appear.i'm not a 100% sure about this yet because the eyes can play tricks on you but i think with this way the optical illusions disappear.
 
Last edited:
Pin said:
Saw this and thought of you. Would something like this be any help?
www.ebay.co.uk

Snooker pool billiards sighting line practice training tool - like sight right | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Snooker pool billiards sighting line practice training tool - like sight right at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products.
www.ebay.co.uk
Click to expand...
i have created my own sight right thing with a folded sheet of paper and a straight line drawn on it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Pin
I think one of the most common issues with shot alignment is head movement that occurs while getting down into your stance. It's why "chin lock" as Jerry Briesath calls it is so important, and you see almost all pros do it.

It's easy enough to stand behind a shot, especially a straight-in shot, and visualize a straight line between pocket, object ball, and cue ball. But many people briefly move their heads/eyes off this line while they are getting into their stances. They think they are coming back onto the line by the time they're fully on the table in their stances, and sometimes they do, but sometimes they don't. And when they don't, they aren't seeing the shot properly, which means they aren't aligned properly.

The stance always needs to be built around the eyes, and that starts with recognizing the line from a standing position and locking your head on the line. Personally, I've noticed that center ball actually looks obvious when I freeze my head position from standing straight up to down on the table. When it looks off, I know that my head moved at some point between eyeing the shot line and getting down onto the table.
 
It seems some folks think “vision center” is a hocus pocus concept that exists only in the minds of some pool instructors. Center vision is simply a layman’s term for how binocular vision fundamentally works - it is pretty well documented in visual cognitive science, and certainly is not unique to pool. I initially got exposed to the concept in competitive pistol shooting, but it comes up among high level practitioners of other sports/activities that involve a front facing predatory posture, aiming & high visual acuity; shooting, archery, darts, martial arts…

One doesn’t have to dive into esoteric academic literature. The Wiki article on Binocular Vision gives a pretty good synopsis, if one reads it in full.

Our eyes have heavily overlapping fields of view - basically center vision is a relatively narrow zone where our eyes converge in stereo to reach peak ocular acuity (most clear vision & depth perception). Due to eye dominance, this zone is biased towards that eye. More technically, its described as the “horizontal horopter” where binocular fusion happens, also known as “Panum's fusional area“. There is also a vertical horopter, but its not very relevant to normal human behavior. If anyone wants to really bend their mind and go deeper, the wiki page on Horopter, is a launching pad…

At the end of the day, achieving consistent alignment is more about anchoring to a known reference point. IMO, the base reference point can really be anything; center vision, dominant eye, body center line, etc - and we see these variations all used quite successively among pros and instructor schools of thought, but my take on it is that choosing as square stance as possible to the balls, built off center vision which is consistent with how our natural proprioceptive/cognitive systems operate - is a fine choice (and IMO the best). Debating the pros/cons of these approaches is absolutely great - but to suggest that center vision itself is a junk concept and denigrating those who teach it - is really pretty ignorant and a classic symptom of confirmation bias (aka “instructoritis”).
 
Last edited:
Well put. I do have a problem with the vision center method of placing your tripod. This is essentially what happens in pool. You learn to shoot essentially wherever the picture works out. Going back to a gun or specifically rifle analogy, you place the rifle according to stable references be they geographical or techno synthetic. At this point I presume you can then use your eyes to fine calibrate a shot.
Seems to me that, and this is how I in fact shoot, pool should work in this manner.

Place/locate the stick first, then get down chin centered and then make any remaining fine adjustments. Properly learned and implemented, this puts you locked and loaded right in the heart of the shot and ideally with L/R symmetrical slack for error.
 
Dan White said:
I think it does. If it wouldn't work for me then it wouldn't work for many other people. There's nothing remarkable about how I learned. The instructions for finding your vision center would have caused me to keep shooting the way I had been. Mind you, we're talking about a small error but it was enough for two people watching my stroke 10 years apart to say "you're lined up crooked."
Click to expand...
It worked for me and I spent so long missing the same shots the same exact way lining up under my dominant eye. I went to Geno and using his methods I saw improvement but it never had the aiming consistency over a wide range of shots I wanted. Now aiming isnt an issue using the vision center and SAWS as long as the shot isn't long and tough in which case I still have trouble aiming them.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top