Why is everything handicapped in the US or how to improve as a B-ish (or 525-ish) player?

stewie

stewie

Active member
2-fold question, but for me personally: I am a B and I am not turning Pro anytime soon. I have a wife and a job during the day. But I would love to improve my game in competition. I am just outside of the city limits of NYC, so, would have quite a few places within an hour to go to. But everything popping up again after COVID is handicapped. Including giving balls and not just games on the wire. It's frustrating. I feel like skill-wise I am in the middle: I am not running a whole rack often enough to beat all the lower rated players consistently. Maybe it's just being rusty as I didn't play much the last 2-3 years?

One could argue to play more, e.g. Joss-Tour, events and you have a point. I would rather play open and loose, than play handicapped. But, most of the stops are quite far. Shouldn't keep me from playing the close-to-home ones and Turning Stone, I know. Of course, another option would be to keep working on beating the handicap more often. And I don't even want to get into APA or similar leagues. My skill level already gets out-handicapped (if that's a word).

If you talk to people you always here: but without handicap nobody would come out and play. Years ago there were at least 2 weekly open tournaments around here. Yes, there had smaller fields, but still were going on for quite some time.

I know, dangerous idea to post, but more in general: Why is it, that there are no nationwide series for amateurs organized in divisions like Pro/A/B/Others by, let's say, the BCA, to compete openly and having a chance to move up or relegate down a tier. Isn't the BCA the US-counterpart of the EPBF in Europe or the DBU in Germany?
 
They just had one at Super Billiards Expo.. it was a great event!

Of course this was a single tournament and not a series. Both APA and BCA have masters leagues which are non handicapped and lots of fun to participate in. I recommend looking into those as they seem right up your alley.
 
Thanks for the "master" pointer. Seems like no 5-minute-search to find out where a master division would play around. Guess I would have to talk to somebody. Still something not offered everywhere?
 
stewie said:
Thanks for the "master" pointer. Seems like no 5-minute-search to find out where a master division would play around. Guess I would have to talk to somebody. Still something not offered everywhere?
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The handicapping is frustrating. In my area, the tournaments are handicapped by fargo rating, but they also cap the tournament! Most are 643 and below with fargo races. Anyone over that skill level is pretty boned when it comes to tournaments to play in.
 
Every country playing pool has this issue of balance between handicapped events to get the weaker players in to play vs. Open events where the best players always win.

If you're in an area that manages a good 50 / 50 split, awesome.
Less so when it is more handicapped and as the OP stated, your skill and rating won't change playing the same level of players.
 
my pool room just had a tourney for only players APA 7 or lower
no handicap
$30 entry and a decent side pot
had a good turn out
maybe you could talk to some room owners to try it
 
telinoz said:
... your skill and rating won't change playing the same level of players.
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That may be true to an extent, but if you put in more effort than your equals in a handicapped setting, you will get better than they are. It depends on the player's talents and time, of course, but I think improving to where you are beating everyone in your room by 2:1 is possible. At that point it's time to move on to a larger pond.
 
i cant answer your fist question (why is everything handicapped)
but your second part is practice more and play smarter against the weaker players you have to give a spot
jmho
icbw
 
stewie said:
Thanks for the "master" pointer. Seems like no 5-minute-search to find out where a master division would play around. Guess I would have to talk to somebody. Still something not offered everywhere?
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Go to the APA or BCA website and find any local league operator. Give them a call and see if they are currently running one of those divisions. I'm from upstate and we have it (both apa and bca) So I have to assume you will have a much larger league available being downstate. For higher skill levels or anyone looking to improve, it's the right way to go.
 
Bob Jewett said:
That may be true to an extent, but if you put in more effort than your equals in a handicapped setting, you will get better than they are. It depends on the player's talents and time, of course, but I think improving to where you are beating everyone in your room by 2:1 is possible. At that point it's time to move on to a larger pond.
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Putting in more time is always required to get even better, I agree. I am not looking for a shortcut. But from past experience I always feel better after loosing to a better player in an open race compared to after not beating a weaker player because of the handicap :-). The first is motivating me and the latter can be very frustrating. On top of it, giving balls can alter the game quite a bit.
 
Sounds to me like you are a person who should be more involved in gambling games rather than tournaments. To me, your frustrations reflect more of a need to gain satisfaction/ improvement by gambling against players better than you; where they give you a spot and you have a challenge that motivates you to play your best against the available better players.

Why worry about tournaments? You want to get better, you are willing to spend some money on the game, you are frustrated by giving up weight to weaker players, so gamble with better players.
 
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Just decide to play or not play.
Fk the handicap and just try to play well.

Think of all the tournaments you have played in.
How many have you played well in?
Focused, making balls, playing smart, etc.

For me it's I would say 1/5 or worse.
Just try and play well, it's hard enough.

When you have handicapped tournaments the field has a "chance" instead of guaranteed dead $, b&c players out number A/AA like 3/1.
 
Poolrooms cater to the ball-bangers and always have. They make sure their bar boxes have big enough pockets and EVERY tournament will be handicapped. I once played in a "New Year's Day" tournament ($25.). As an A player, I had to give the best player in that room, the 5,6,7,8 and 9 plus all the breaks. Do the ball-bangers ever get better? No, because I still have to give their best players 7-4 on the wire. Even the owner (he plays in Joss tour events) puts himself in his own tournaments as needing a handicap. He goes to 5, you go to 7. Sleaze runs hand in hand with tournaments. I recall a couple poolroom owners that actually stole the player's tournament money. "I decided to use it somewhere else."
 
Not everyone likes getting their head beat in all of the time....except me.
I like an open tournament myself, no handicaps.
The concentration level among players is certainly higher in a no handicap tournament.
Perhaps it is not smart of me to never give or take weight but then again I gamble cheap.
Needless to say, I've taken many a lesson but it improves my game, especially my safety play.
Forces you to learn to kick with a chosen speed.
Amazing how many times you can hook your opponent when you choose the correct speed of a kick shot.
 
My son started an even race tournament in the pool hall he manages now. For the first handful of weeks there were maybe 16-20 players showing up of all skill levels. Last maybe 4 weeks there were 6-8 and all were the top players. So there is the reason to have handicapped events.
 
hang-the-9 said:
My son started an even race tournament in the pool hall he manages now. For the first handful of weeks there were maybe 16-20 players showing up of all skill levels. Last maybe 4 weeks there were 6-8 and all were the top players. So there is the reason to have handicapped events.
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Oh, I get the reason why there are handicaps. I just want to compete even as well.

The other part of my initial post I was wondering why there is no wide system across the US to compete even on several levels. Like having A/B/C/D divisions, e.g. where top 8 finishers of a C-Division district tournament would qualify for the "B-Championships". And if you finished not high enough there, you would have to re-qualify from the C-Division again.
 
stewie said:
Oh, I get the reason why there are handicaps. I just want to compete even as well.

The other part of my initial post I was wondering why there is no wide system across the US to compete even on several levels. Like having A/B/C/D divisions, e.g. where top 8 finishers of a C-Division district tournament would qualify for the "B-Championships". And if you finished not high enough there, you would have to re-qualify from the C-Division again.
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Would be nice to have a national tour/ranking type thing like they have in some other countries. No one really bothered to do it though, since the leagues make money as it is without more effort. And trying to organize the pool halls to run their tournaments organized with each-other is a pretty futile effort. I'd love to see rank based organized events done by a central organization like CSI or BCA with higher prizes for higher tiers. Should help with the sandbagging also if the lower tier prize funds are much lower, make anything under the top tier be almost a token prize and the top players will be trying to be known as the top players instead of hiding in the handicap system. If a C event pays out $100 and an A event is $2,000 not a lot of A players will be cheating to play with the C players. That is where the leagues usually screw up, they just have a main prize for whoever with the handicaps so the best way to get to that prize is to cheat.

The only way I found for me to stay focused is to play every player like they are better than me, and with handicapped events you pretty much need to do that, you play a 5-2 or a 6-2 race with anyone and there is a chance of losing to someone that can make 2-3 balls at a time max. Need to minimize mistakes then as much as you would when playing an even race with a good player. Of course this makes the worse players get all mad since you are leaving them hooked or with a tough shot instead of just going for silly shots and leaving them wide open. The good ones will learn from that anyway.
 
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mikemosconi said:
Sounds to me like you are a person who should be more involved in gambling games rather than tournaments. To me, your frustrations reflect more of a need to gain satisfaction/ improvement by gambling against players better than you; where they give you a spot and you have a challenge that motivates you to play your best against the available better players.

Why worry about tournaments? You want to get better, you are willing to spend some money on the game, you are frustrated by giving up weight to weaker players, so gamble with better players.
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And there is actually little pool per hour in tournaments.

I'd rather play pool.
 
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