Please Fix POOL LEAGUE RULES ... Here Are Some Suggestions

What about beginning and recreational players? Should we be making them play under professional rules? This game is hard enough to learn...no sense in making it harder for beginners. Its difficult enough to get people interested in picking up this game.

I dont see the problem with a little variety. I've played APA, VALLEY, BCA, and some Texas Express tournaments.... some of them at the same time (same session). I have no problem adapting to each rule set.
I disagree.

You hear the same excuses from people who don’t want to play golf by the correct rules.

The rules aren’t there to help, hinder, or to make the game either easier or harder. They just tell us how the game is played. No beginner in the history of pool (or golf) has ever been told the rules of the game and said, ”you know, I’d take up this game if only the rules were different”….

Identify and settle on one set of rules and stick with them. It’s no harder to play by one set of rules, than another.
 
Most people like you and me, but what's obvious to us isn't necessarily obvious to the shooter or their opponent. Seriously, a 2 can look at a straight-in shot and not know where to shoot it. And a cut could go straight to the corner or straight to the side, so even that's not obvious to some players.

I looked at WPA rules online (declared "official", although less than half the pool players ANYWHERE use them or have even heard of them) and the rule about the 8-Ball says nothing about banks or kicks or any of that other stuff, it just says if it's not obvious.

See Rule 1.6 here:
https://wpapool.com/rules-of-play/#general-rules


WReferences to referees are everywhere, but the part I looked at said nothing about what to do when there is no referee present, as in most league environments.

See Regulation 21 here:
https://wpapool.com/rule-regulations/#Cue-ball-fouls-only
 
The rules aren’t there to help, hinder, or to make the game either easier or harder. They just tell us how the game is played. No beginner in the history of pool (or golf) has ever been told the rules of the game and said, ”you know, I’d take up this game if only the rules were different”….

Identify and settle on one set of rules and stick with them. It’s no harder to play by one set of rules, than another.

Well stated, and so true!
 
More random, illogical rules from the WPA:
Scratching or jumping off the table on the break gives opponent ball in hand in the kitchen. Why is that? Why do we need a separate rule for this particular instance of a foul? It should be ball in hand anywhere on the table! Really, if you start digging into the rules you'll find more and more nonsense like this. And that's only 8 ball...
 
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I disagree.

You hear the same excuses from people who don’t want to play golf by the correct rules.

The rules aren’t there to help, hinder, or to make the game either easier or harder. They just tell us how the game is played. No beginner in the history of pool (or golf) has ever been told the rules of the game and said, ”you know, I’d take up this game if only the rules were different”….

Identify and settle on one set of rules and stick with them. It’s no harder to play by one set of rules, than another.
Harder to follow? Maybe not. More fun? Depends on who you are. I play golf, and if I had to observe every rule in competition golf, I probably wouldn't play. I have a hard enough time striking the ball from a good lie, let alone in someone's divot or in between tufts of grass because the public courses can't keep their fairways in pristine condition like the ones you see on TV. When the rules take away what little success you do enjoy, they're certainly taking the fun out of the game and making it less attractive to some. There's nothing wrong with having stricter rules as you get better.
 
More random, illogical rules from the WPA:
Scratching or jumping off the table on the break gives opponent ball in hand in the kitchen. Why is that? Why do we need a separate rule for this particular instance of a foul? It should be ball in hand anywhere on the table! Really, if you start digging into the rules you'll find more and more nonsense like this. And that's only 8 ball...
CSI has changed this rule for their leagues so any foul on the break gives ball in hand anywhere. I think that was mostly done as a simplification. I think it is an improvement. The break rules at eight ball are pretty complicated. (CSI rules are mostly based on WPA rules.)

Of course ball in hand behind the line is a holdover from previous rule sets that did not have ball in hand anywhere on the table under any circumstance. I believe the main justification for keeping it in the current rules was that BIH anywhere was too harsh a penalty for scratching on the break.
 
You don’t have to mark the pocket in the league I play in- you just have to vocalize your intentions unless it is obvious
 
Yep - definitely would be nice if all professional games and organized leagues played with the same rule set. Can't be that hard can it?

Snooker rules are snooker rules. Simple. No variations that I know of (apart from the 'miss rule' really only being for professionals).

But 'yep' also - trying to get standardized rules for games in bars ain't gonna happen. If you go into a bar you just have to go with the flow and play by whatever crackpot rules the locals play. However tempting it is - don't deliberately *not* hit one of your balls to get advantage. Does my head in that you can actually do that in most USA bars!
 
CSI has changed this rule for their leagues so any foul on the break gives ball in hand anywhere. I think that was mostly done as a simplification. I think it is an improvement. The break rules at eight ball are pretty complicated. (CSI rules are mostly based on WPA rules.)

Of course ball in hand behind the line is a holdover from previous rule sets that did not have ball in hand anywhere on the table under any circumstance. I believe the main justification for keeping it in the current rules was that BIH anywhere was too harsh a penalty for scratching on the break.
Agree that it would be an improvement.

I also agree that the 8 ball break rules are complicated.

IMO they are needlessly and pointlessly complicated. They should be simplified and could be so, very easily. Here is my suggestion:

The following rules apply to the break shot:
(a) The cue ball begins in hand behind the head string.
(b) No ball is called, and the cue ball is not required to hit any particular object ball first.
(c) If the breaker pockets a ball and does not foul, he continues at the table, and the table
remains open. (See 3.4 Open Table / Choosing Groups.)
(d) If no object ball is pocketed, at least four object balls must be driven to one or more rails,
or the shot results in an illegal break, and the incoming player has the option of
(1) re-racking and breaking, or
(2) re-racking and allowing the offending player to break again.
(e) Pocketing the eight ball on a legal break shot is not a foul. If the eight ball is pocketed, the
breaker will:
Re-spot the eight ball and continue his inning with the cueball in position
(f) If the breaker pockets the eight ball and scratches (see definition 8.6 Scratch), the opponent
will:
Respot the 8 and shoot with ball in hand anywhere on the table
g: Any other foul on a break which meets the 4 balls hitting the rail requirement, will result in ball in hand to the opponent, anywhere on the table. If 4 balls did not hit rails, refer to (d).


Compare to WPA with tons of pointless choices:

The following rules apply to the break shot:
(a) The cue ball begins in hand behind the head string.
(b) No ball is called, and the cue ball is not required to hit any particular object ball first.
(c) If the breaker pockets a ball and does not foul, he continues at the table, and the table
remains open. (See 3.4 Open Table / Choosing Groups.)
(d) If no object ball is pocketed, at least four object balls must be driven to one or more rails,
or the shot results in an illegal break, and the incoming player has the option of
(1) accepting the table in position, or
(2) re-racking and breaking, or
(3) re-racking and allowing the offending player to break again.
(e) Pocketing the eight ball on a legal break shot is not a foul. If the eight ball is pocketed, the
breaker has the option of
(1) re-spotting the eight ball and accepting the balls in position, or
(2) re-breaking.
(f) If the breaker pockets the eight ball and scratches (see definition 8.6 Scratch), the opponent
has the option of:
(1) re-spotting the eight ball and shooting with cue ball in hand behind the head string;
or
(2) re-breaking.
(g) If any object ball is driven off the table on a break shot, it is a foul; such balls remain out
of play (except the eight ball which is re-spotted); and the incoming player has the option of
(1) accepting the table in position, or
(2) taking cue ball in hand behind the head string.
(h) If the breaker fouls in any manner not listed above, the following player has the option of
(1) accepting the balls in position, or
(2) taking cue ball in hand behind the head string.
 
FYI, I just posted a new video that looks at issues with pool league rules, discusses some of the rule differences among league systems, and recommends a few rule changes that put league play more in line with the official rules of pool. Check it out:


Content:
0:00 - Intro
0:37 - 45˚ Rule
4:18 - CB Fouls Only
8:11 - Open Table
9:32 - Marking the 8
10:51 - Wrap Up

As always, I look forward to your feedback, comments, questions, complaints, and requests.

Enjoy!
Dave i got intouch with WPA pres. Ian Andersen he told me he has no control over the rulings and referred me to his rule director. I wanted to see if some rules were confusing and simple to correct. The director told me that the rules I was referring to were arbitrary. What was confusing to one wasn't confusing to another. So I went to the forum and posted my concerns. My wording was confusing to the forum and I opened a can of worms... I talked to Mike about this and he said that I was better off to leave all alone... Good luck to you, Guy Manges
 
IMO, pocketing the 8 on a break should win the rack. Scratching while pocketing the 8 should be a foul, with BIH consistent with other foul rules; the 8 gets spotted.

Any explanation for why 8 on the break should not be a rack win?
 
... Any explanation for why 8 on the break should not be a rack win?
Because you did not pocket all of the balls in your group first. That's eight ball -- get a group, clear up your group and then shoot the eight. It makes no sense to win for an eight on the break especially because it often involves a gaff rack.

Of course on a coin-op table it sort of has to count as a win unless you carry a few extra eight balls.
 
IMO, pocketing the 8 on a break should win the rack. Scratching while pocketing the 8 should be a foul, with BIH consistent with other foul rules; the 8 gets spotted.

Any explanation for why 8 on the break should not be a rack win?
I assume you're talking about BCAPL rules?

If yes, it was explained to me like this...

Since you cannot win on the break, you therefore cannot lose on the break. If you have a good break and the eight ball goes in, but you get unlucky and scratch, it is not a loss. 8 ball get spotted, and ball in hand for the opponent.
 
If we're talking about illogical rules, how about the "call shot" rules for 8 ball and 10 ball in WPA? To me that is equally as ridiculous as the rules previously discussed. Why should I instruct my opponent as to what shot I'm playing? It makes no sense, a legal shot should be legal without the intentions being made clear in advance. It's a remnant of bar rules, with argumentative drunks arguing about luck. It needlessly complicates the game, breeds conflict for a questionable objective to "eliminate luck" which doesn't come into play much in the pro game, and when it does is usually exciting to the audience rather than the opposite.

Call shot belongs in straight pool and banks, and nowhere else. That is because not having it would ruin the mechanics of those games, and that is the only reason such a rule should ever be implemented. It doesnt' belong in 9ball, 10 ball, straight rotation or 8 ball and certainly not one pocket, though I've never heard anyone advocate for that, fortunately.
I don't want to but I will agree with you... You're wright... Many years ago I don't remember 8 ball being a call game and some of the best players I ever saw didn't call and didn't have to call the pockets... Even today Heyball rules don't make 8 ball a call pocket game and they include some of the best players on this earth, I know I YOUTUBE many thousands of 8 ball games and am an old 8 ball fan... Guy
 
I almost never call shots that are straight to the pocket. Not even playing 8 ball. I never assume I'm going to be cheated, because it is not something I will ever do. Marking a pocket is the dumbest thing ever, and basically says pool players are scum and can't be trusted. I wont play that way.
 
I almost never call shots that are straight to the pocket. Not even playing 8 ball. I never assume I'm going to be cheated, because it is not something I will ever do. Marking a pocket is the dumbest thing ever, and basically says pool players are scum and can't be trusted. I wont play that way.
Absolutely right. But you have to remember, some pool players are the biggest whining little bitches you'll ever meet!
 
Because you did not pocket all of the balls in your group first. That's eight ball -- get a group, clear up your group and then shoot the eight. It makes no sense to win for an eight on the break especially because it often involves a gaff rack.

For those interested, I demo a "technique" in this video that allowed me to make the 8 on the break 20% of the time (1 in 5)!!!


Of course on a coin-op table it sort of has to count as a win unless you carry a few extra eight balls.

Most bars and pool halls have keys to the bar boxes and can open them to extract the 8 on the rare occasions it goes on the break.
 
Most people like you and me, but what's obvious to us isn't necessarily obvious to the shooter or their opponent. Seriously, a 2 can look at a straight-in shot and not know where to shoot it. And a cut could go straight to the corner or straight to the side, so even that's not obvious to some players.

I looked at WPA rules online (declared "official", although less than half the pool players ANYWHERE use them or have even heard of them) and the rule about the 8-Ball says nothing about banks or kicks or any of that other stuff, it just says if it's not obvious. Written by people who "know how to write rules". That word, the word "barely", and the word "assumed" are sprinkled everywhere in that rule set. When used by a small audience of good players, that might be ok, but words like that cause wildly different interpretations when you widen your audience. References to referees are everywhere, but the part I looked at said nothing about what to do when there is no referee present, as in most league environments.

To be clear, the rule about marking the pocket is my least favorite rule. I have to enforce it when called upon, but now it's worded so that it's not an automatic loss. I always give the opponent a hard time if they knew where the 8 was going, and only an a-hole will take a game that way now in my league. I think the rule could be reworded further to make it more palatable to everyone. It's under "How to Lose", and should be rewritten to be something like "If you don't clearly indicate the intended pocket for the 8-Ball (preferably with a physical marker) and your opponent disputes which was the intended pocket." That would cover both "obvious" and cases where you waved at the table but didn't clearly indicate the pocket. The a-holes would still lie but at least they'd have to lie.
Good write, But when Dr Dave says that the pocket called with kiss, combo, masse, rail, bla bla Intent must be called, WPA ruling says Irrelevant ( IRRELEVANT) ... Guy
 
I disagree.

You hear the same excuses from people who don’t want to play golf by the correct rules.

The rules aren’t there to help, hinder, or to make the game either easier or harder. They just tell us how the game is played. No beginner in the history of pool (or golf) has ever been told the rules of the game and said, ”you know, I’d take up this game if only the rules were different”….

Identify and settle on one set of rules and stick with them. It’s no harder to play by one set of rules, than another.
I sure wish for alls sake it could be that way and I'm old and unable to play any more... Guy
 
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