It's Not the same game...

Jaden,

A well reasoned discussion. However, your discussion involves a shaft change. Nothing stopping the further forward bridge with a carbon fiber shaft. Haven't been playing lately for several reasons but I played with the Cynergy low deflection shaft for about a year, bridging all over the place. Shorter bridge for normal play longer for the times I was too lazy to grab a bridge. I know how the cue ball will behave hit off center so no big deal when I use my typical, for me, about ten or twelve inch bridge.

I have never pried into your exact skill level but I know it is pretty advanced. What isn't an issue for you may be an issue for many others. Also, you are a pretty serious student of the game. Go to your favorite pool halls and ask the guys that seem to be always there what a pivot point is. Ask them where the pivot point is on their cue. I think the vast majority will give you a blank look!

I typically use a parallel shift for side spin. Sometimes a touch of backhand added for fine tuning of the cue ball's path. I have also used just backhand for long periods. Mixed a parallel shift with front or backhand english, tried half front and half back hand english. I like BHE least of all. Front hand english has a lot of potential but like a parallel shift needs to be used enough to make adjustments before putting down your bridge hand.

From a simple I suppose trigonometrical standpoint a back hand shift seems worst of all. It puts the stick angle side to side at a greater angle to the cue ball path than any other form of english.

We all tend to stick with what we are used to and after the experimentation I revert to a parallel shift but I think if I worked with it enough it came natural I might favor a front hand shift. You need to put in a hundred hours or more trying each variation of english and when we start combining them the combinations are endless. I even tried all three ways of applying english used at the same time for a few hours one day. Decided it was overkill.

Anytime we get away from centerline what we do involves trade-offs. Which ones we choose to make probably depends on what we are accustomed to. I often use a bridge I consider too long but that is just sloppy play. What I get away with is helped by being a centerline player. I mostly stick to within a half tip of centerline, which makes most of this discussion not apply to my play. Interesting exercise though and I always enjoy intelligent conversation!

Hu
I read this post a little deeper and I want to add one thing.

While it may seem that BHE puts the cue at an odder angle to the original shot line than other methods, take a minute to REALLY think about it because I'll tell you right now that for the shot to be made with the amount of english that it is struck with, the lines of the cue will be identical regardless as to the method you use to put it there.

The ONLY difference, will be the relationship of the angle of your arm relative to your body and sight line. That absolutely does take some getting used to and some people won't be able to ever avoid chicken winging it with extreme side spin. Using BHE requires that you trust you are on the correct aimline line and to disregard the change in angle that rotating your arm out, or in, creates in your visual perspective since you lined up on the shot as though it were a straight, no sidespin shot, initially.

Jaden

Sometime not that long ago I posted a link to a youtube video of me doing a drill, where I setup the same shot 10 times going with center ball and then the face of a the clock going out to 3 o'clock, then backwards to upper right, midnight, upper left, 9 o'clock, lower left, 6 o'clock, lower right and back to 3 o'clock and then changed the balls positions and did it again. I did it all using BHE. I'll see if I can find the video and repost it here.
 
Absolutely, if you're a feel player and you're not going to attempt to understand pivot point and to bridge there when you can, then absolutely, bridge closer to the front, it will stabilize your stroke and you'll hit more accurately on the cb where you're trying to.

Now be careful though, because parallel shift always works better the lower the deflection (or cb squirt) your shaft has. It will require feel and coming into the shot knowing exactly where you want to hit the ball and with how much and what type of spin. Consistency will also require a consistent repeatable stroke.

There are massive advantages in overcoming stroke inconsistency and stroke flaws with using BHE. However, the danger in using BHE to compensate for stroke flaws is the same problem players have with things like playing differently, looking at different positions, pulling up on the stroke under pressure versus non-pressure practice. That danger being that you will be rewarded with making shots for bad behavior. Now, what you'll also find is that your position play will be off even when you make the shots that you have stroke flaws on, but most people consider making the shot the largest reward and you don't want to subconsciously train stroke flaws into your game.

Jaden


Jaden, As seems typical, I view position as usually the tougher part of the shot. I have planned a shot to make a ball and get to the next position. When my game was at it's peak I was trying for shape within an inch an eighth or less off. If the cue ball didn't land exactly on the spot I wanted I expected it to cover that spot.

I read this post a little deeper and I want to add one thing.

While it may seem that BHE puts the cue at an odder angle to the original shot line than other methods, take a minute to REALLY think about it because I'll tell you right now that for the shot to be made with the amount of english that it is struck with, the lines of the cue will be identical regardless as to the method you use to put it there.

The ONLY difference, will be the relationship of the angle of your arm relative to your body and sight line. That absolutely does take some getting used to and some people won't be able to ever avoid chicken winging it with extreme side spin. Using BHE requires that you trust you are on the correct aimline line and to disregard the change in angle that rotating your arm out, or in, creates in your visual perspective since you lined up on the shot as though it were a straight, no sidespin shot, initially.

Jaden

Sometime not that long ago I posted a link to a youtube video of me doing a drill, where I setup the same shot 10 times going with center ball and then the face of a the clock going out to 3 o'clock, then backwards to upper right, midnight, upper left, 9 o'clock, lower left, 6 o'clock, lower right and back to 3 o'clock and then changed the balls positions and did it again. I did it all using BHE. I'll see if I can find the video and repost it here.

Jaden, that is an incorrect statement. A funny one because PJ and I argued about it for ten years or more and then one day he decided he understood what I was saying and that I was correct.

The thing is that we are hitting on the outside of the cue ball to affect the center axis of the cue ball. Our limiting factor is the grip between cue ball and cloth.

I am going to try to demonstrate with a handful of coins, a table, and a cue stick or any long straight shaft. Put something on the table to represent your bridge point and your grip area. Now put something small out there to represent the cue ball, or to be more exact the true centerline of the cue ball running ninety degrees to the surface of the table. Put something two or three inches from the centerline of the cue ball, exaggerating the point we are going to hit the outside of the cue ball for clarity.

If we make a parallel shift there is no difference in the shot angle and the cue stick angle side to side. Zero degrees. by definition of parallel this has to be the result. There may be a slight adjustment to the cue stick angle to pocket the object ball but essentially the stick remains parallel to the shot line.

Now, keep the grip area the same as it was in the beginning and move the tip to hit the same spot. There is now a distinct angle and we can put a marker to indicate our new bridge point to use front hand english.

Return the stick to it's original starting point. Now keep the bridge spot as original and move the grip area to hit the same place with the tip. Now the cue has the most pronounced angle in relation to the cue ball line. Mark your new grip area.

To make the same shot, pocketing the object ball and bringing the cue ball to the same exact place for shape requires three different cue stick angles. It gets more complicated because we are interested in the line of force to get this result. To get the same result with three different lines of force through the cue ball is either going to require slightly different hit speeds or slight adjustments to the contact point on the cue ball.

This is just the tip of the iceberg and I have a lot of things about spin I would like to test. Probably never happen.

Hu
 
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