me playing a 9-ball rack..thoughts?

[evergruven]

based on this vid, I asked an instructor online "watching me play, do you notice anything holding me back, or anything in particular you think would be good to work on?"

they replied, "Your arm is close to your body so moving the lead foot off to the side would give you more clearance, and the grip you use is compensation for that lack of clearance. I think that stepping into the shot per what Mark Wilson teaches is a great place to start"

watching the vid, I do notice my hand is a bit forward of my wrist..I think this has something to do with the cue/how comfy I feel with its balance, but is something I'd like to fix.

I'm also working on my body/head position, pausing longer on my backstroke, and looking at ob last. and thinking maybe I should think twice about shooting at side pockets

a real work in progress, I know. what do y'all see, tho?

 

[Bob Jewett]

,,,
a real work in progress, I know. what do y'all see, tho?

Continue to work on your fundamental. Play tighter position.

 

[FranCrimi]

I'm not that concerned about your grip hand position right now. Watch CJ play. There are a few other pros who play that way as well. As you fix your other issues, you may feel like you want to adjust your grip hand. You'll have to see over time. I prefer something like that to the grip with the pressure on the first two fingers. At least you're not twisting the cue.

Two things that jump out at me are your approach and your stroke timing. Your approach is critical to your aiming process and your stroke timing is critical to your accuracy.

Unfortunately, a poor approach is often a by-product of having a home table. You need room to step back and view the shot and then step into it while keeping your eyes glued to where the line of the shot meets the object ball. But even if you're restricted by lack of space, you can still stand back as far as you can and view the shot. Then step in to the shot --- even if it's just one step --- Do it by feel because you don't want to take your eyes of of where the line meets the ob until you are down in your stance and set, because that's your starting point of where you will point your cue. Then you will make tiny adjustments when you're down on the shot. But it all starts from a standing position where you have trust what you see, and then don't waver.

Next is your stroke timing. You probably figured out early on --- maybe even subconsciously --- that a shorter, pokier, more compact-type of stroke gave you a bit more accuracy. That type of fix is temporary, and will prevent you from developing your sense of feel for individual shots. You're going to have to get yourself weaned off of that. It's not helping you progress. You are going to have to take control over your stroke for awhile and stay conscious. Start by slowing down your backstroke as if you were throwing a ball or a punch. The forward stroke is what mainly changes, due to your needs for each shot. The longer pause at the end of your backstroke helps for players who can't slow down their backstrokes, but I would prefer to see you try to slow it down before resorting to a long pause.

Mike Sigel used to use a buzz word that I think helps. It's very simple. He said, think 'smoooooth.'

 

[BC21]

Rewatch your video and take notice of how inconsistent your follow through is. On some shots you follow all the way through the cb, while on others you seem to hold back.

Not naturally allowing your stroke to follow through to the end means your muscles are tensing up as you're striking the cb. This could cause the tip to move and not make contact where you intend. A consistent follow through, all the way through the cb, provides more consistent results.

 

[goettlicher]

I see a waste of energy (bleeding energy). Simplify all your movements.

Keep up the hard work.
Randy Goettlicher

 

[SmoothStroke]

I see a waste of energy (bleeding energy). Simplify all your movements.

Keep up the hard work.
Randy Goettlicher

^^^^ What he said. It's like watching a walking nerve cell. Keep you're movements simple and minimal.
Calm down, stop bobbing for apples with your head. You're all tensed up, come out of the cocoon, relax.
It's a dance, a smooth rhythm, a nice flow from shot to shot.
I'm waiting for you're cue to fly through the wall and go through the neighbors pool with those air strokes.

You have been posting for a good time now trying to improve your game. That says a lot as most
players are afraid to ask for assistance, guidance, help.
You must work on stroke technique and control drills, not shot drills, shots come naturally with stroke drills.
Consider removing the mask unless it's absolutely needed. There is something to be said for controlled and unrestricted breathing.

I think you would benefit greatly with live personal instruction.
I will take visual learning over auditory learning all day, every day, especially for stroke technique.
There is no comparison when you see and hear the stroke excecuted in front of you and the
explanation that goes along with it. It's a real ah hah moment.

Trying to learn from written words whether it's here or a book will take two lifetimes and improvement will be very little. Find an instructor close by that you feel comfortable with, or travel to one. You could pay one to travel to you. Online instructions are not the same as in person but are better than reading.
I'm not spending your money but it will be money spent wisely.

Forgive the rant, I was just going to agree with Randy ^^^ and got carried away.
Best of luck ...SS

 

[FranCrimi]

So, evergruven --- you're a regular poster here, you took a leap and posted a video of yourself playing, asking for help, and then you disappeared. What's up with that? Did you find the holy grail in some back door private message conversation with someone? Watch out for those private message advice sort of things. People who don't like to speak out publicly have something to hide.

 

[evergruven]

So, evergruven --- you're a regular poster here, you took a leap and posted a video of yourself playing, asking for help, and then you disappeared. What's up with that? Did you find the holy grail in some back door private message conversation with someone? Watch out for those private message advice sort of things. People who don't like to speak out publicly have something to hide.

hi fran- I haven't been ignoring this thread, rather I've been holding space for it until I could properly respond
as ever, I very much appreciate input from posters/instructors here, and look forward to digging into this stuff
otherwise, I'm likely too stubborn to take the easy way out- I like the work- but thanks for your vigilance, etc.

talk soon,
sean

 

[BilliardsAbout]

based on this vid, I asked an instructor online "watching me play, do you notice anything holding me back, or anything in particular you think would be good to work on?"

they replied, "Your arm is close to your body so moving the lead foot off to the side would give you more clearance, and the grip you use is compensation for that lack of clearance. I think that stepping into the shot per what Mark Wilson teaches is a great place to start"

watching the vid, I do notice my hand is a bit forward of my wrist..I think this has something to do with the cue/how comfy I feel with its balance, but is something I'd like to fix.

I'm also working on my body/head position, pausing longer on my backstroke, and looking at ob last. and thinking maybe I should think twice about shooting at side pockets

a real work in progress, I know. what do y'all see, tho?

You have excellent potential. This has been discussed in part above, but to be concise:

No pro addresses the ball in the stance as you do--wiggling the cue stick back and forth even as you get into the stance. You need to bring the cue stick down on the table with ZERO movement of the stick--just cue up to the cue ball so you can get your distance/tip gap to the cue ball the same for most shots.

Start there and post another video runout and I'll go from there. Thanks!

 

[evergruven]

hi all, sorry for the delayed response- life.
pool is still on the back burner, but I have some time now to respond, so I will
thanks again to all for taking the time to view and comment-

Continue to work on your fundamental. Play tighter position.

hi bob, thanks. what do you mean by tighter position? cb is what comes to mind- ?

I'm not that concerned about your grip hand position right now.

hi fran, that's good- one less thing to work on seriously tho, is it not better to have the wrist fall in a straighter line?

Two things that jump out at me are your approach and your stroke timing.

my approach definitely needs work. from all the comments in this thread, it's clear I wriggle around when I'm down because I don't feel comfortable re: my body and aim. my intentions are good, I think, and I guess it's been working well enough, but I will try to aim better when I'm up and step into the shot more.

Next is your stroke timing. You probably figured out early on --- maybe even subconsciously --- that a shorter, pokier, more compact-type of stroke gave you a bit more accuracy. That type of fix is temporary, and will prevent you from developing your sense of feel for individual shots. You're going to have to get yourself weaned off of that. It's not helping you progress. You are going to have to take control over your stroke for awhile and stay conscious. Start by slowing down your backstroke as if you were throwing a ball or a punch. The forward stroke is what mainly changes, due to your needs for each shot. The longer pause at the end of your backstroke helps for players who can't slow down their backstrokes, but I would prefer to see you try to slow it down before resorting to a long pause.

I used to have (and still do, at times) a long, wavy bridge/stroke- my first pool role model was my friend who had that style, and efren is my fave.
and I like that style- being a pool robot doesn't entice me. this said, I've consciously shortened my stroke for a lot of shots, to simplify things and try to prevent errors from creeping in. recently, I've also been experimenting with a pause. and I can see where my backward/forward timing could use some work.
thanks for such detailed insight and analysis.

Rewatch your video and take notice of how inconsistent your follow through is. On some shots you follow all the way through the cb, while on others you seem to hold back.

Not naturally allowing your stroke to follow through to the end means your muscles are tensing up as you're striking the cb. This could cause the tip to move and not make contact where you intend. A consistent follow through, all the way through the cb, provides more consistent results.

thanks brian, I think I see this in myself. when I watch pros break/draw, their tip often hits the felt after contacting the cb. I'm not sure if I've ever done that or not! I feel like not tho. I think part of why, at least re: draw, is that I'm afraid of miscueing. one piece of advice I've heard is to aim to strike through the cb, as if you were aiming to hit a ghost ball behind the object ball, to put a good stroke on it. any other advice about how to encourage good follow-through?

I see a waste of energy (bleeding energy). Simplify all your movements.

Keep up the hard work.

I hear you- thanks randy.

^^^^ What he said. It's like watching a walking nerve cell. Keep you're movements simple and minimal.
Calm down, stop bobbing for apples with your head. You're all tensed up, come out of the cocoon, relax.
It's a dance, a smooth rhythm, a nice flow from shot to shot.
I'm waiting for you're cue to fly through the wall and go through the neighbors pool with those air strokes.

ha, msg received will shine up my dance shoes and work on this. hey, I like my air strokes tho ^_^

I think you would benefit greatly with live personal instruction.

word. if it weren't for covid, I'd have indulged this instinct I also have. video, maybe..I appreciate your comments, and humor- thanks.

You have excellent potential.

hey matt, appreciate the encouragement. may I ask what specifically makes you think so, tho?

You need to bring the cue stick down on the table with ZERO movement of the stick--just cue up to the cue ball so you can get your distance/tip gap to the cue ball the same for most shots.

Start there and post another video runout and I'll go from there. Thanks!

interesting..having a little trouble picturing this, but simplifying this in general seems to be a theme here..will consider- thank you.
and will post another vid when I get a chance-

thanks again, all-

 

[WobblyStroke]

1. seriously tho, is it not better to have the wrist fall in a straighter line?


2. I used to have (and still do, at times) a long, wavy bridge/stroke- my first pool role model was my friend who had that style, and efren is my fave.
and I like that style- being a pool robot doesn't entice me. this said, I've consciously shortened my stroke for a lot of shots, to simplify things and try to prevent errors from creeping in. recently, I've also been experimenting with a pause. and I can see where my backward/forward timing could use some work.
thanks for such detailed insight and analysis.


3. thanks brian, I think I see this in myself. when I watch pros break/draw, their tip often hits the felt after contacting the cb. I'm not sure if I've ever done that or not! I feel like not tho. I think part of why, at least re: draw, is that I'm afraid of miscueing. one piece of advice I've heard is to aim to strike through the cb, as if you were aiming to hit a ghost ball behind the object ball, to put a good stroke on it. any other advice about how to encourage good follow-through?

1. Different grips fit different styles and setups. If this one isn't making you fight physics to keep cue on line with no twists, then you can def focus on other drawbacks to your game for now. Chin Shun Yang comes to mind as a guy who has his hand nearly sideways out from his wrist and he is amazing. That said, he also has a shorter more compact stroke like yours in the vid so it does seem like this grip is well suited to that style. I struggle to see how this could work with a long fluid wavy stroke you mention in 2....

2+3. I also play a wavy stroke (my nickname on here reflects the vertical wobble it has) and can tell you that those cannot really work with all that nervous energy and thirst for control your tight grip style in the vid displays. The control in a loose flowing stroke comes from lack of control....from letting it go and trusting it will continue on its line without your adding anything extra beyond a point. This goes hand in hand with wrist action as once the forward motion in the wrist is initiated there is nothing to do but let it complete. There is no steering, no clutching tight on the grip as u did on the 2 ball and cpl other shots where your follow through got cut short. There is no need to ever stop the cue if you are set up correctly. You need to be able to just send it and allow it to come to a stop on its own when it runs out of room. Players that play high off the cue need to come up with some sort of anchor to their swing like fixing their elbow position or physically connecting their arm to their body for stability. Players that get low on the cue naturally have a much lower right shoulder and this limits how far the hand can come forward before slamming to a stop with that beautiful 'positive finish' snooker players speak of (meaning the stroke accelerates right up until it completes). Basically, to work on follow through you have to not squeeze with your grip hand and allow the stroke to move forward to something prevents it from continuing....the trick is that this thing that stops the stroke should be built into your setup and not be something you do or trigger while stroking.

good luck

 

[BC21]

thanks brian, I think I see this in myself. when I watch pros break/draw, their tip often hits the felt after contacting the cb. I'm not sure if I've ever done that or not! I feel like not tho. I think part of why, at least re: draw, is that I'm afraid of miscueing. one piece of advice I've heard is to aim to strike through the cb, as if you were aiming to hit a ghost ball behind the object ball, to put a good stroke on it. any other advice about how to encourage good follow-through?

I think the reason a lot of pro players end up hitting the cloth with the cue tip when breaking is because they shift the body upward/forward into the break shot, which causes the cue tip to move downward just after contact with the cb. The timing of your stroke/cb contact has to be spot on to pull this off consistently. I mean, typically when we raise up we miss-hit the cb and either miss the shot we're trying to make or miscue horribly. So it's generally not good to try this. On the break, however, for more power, many players practice the technique to become more consistent with timing the cb hit just right.

As far as working on a good follow through, try this for a few minutes every day:

Shoot straight in stop shots - ob within a couple of feet from the pocket and cb about 1 to 1.5 feet from the ob. Hit center cb and use a normal/medium speed stroke, not soft or hard. The goal is to finish each shot with the tip of your cue at least 6 to 8 inches beyond where the cb was before you hit it. The cb should stop dead, no sideways motion or draw or forward roll after it hits the ob. Be honest with yourself when determing whether or not a shot can be called good or not good.

Do this until you hit 10 good stop shots in a row.
Good means the cb stops dead in its tracks AND your follow through ends with the cue tip 6 to 8 inches out. If 10 in a row turns out to be too easy to achieve, jack the goal up to 15 or 20. If 10 is too difficult, lower the goal to 7 or 5. It should be challenging, but not so challenging that you spend anymore than 20 to 30 minutes to achieve your goal. Frustration is no good. Boredom is no good.

Approach each shot with a solid psr and focus on hitting center cb. Keep in mind that what you're really working on is developing a consistent follow through. But part of that involves delivering the cue accurately and consistently into and through the cb.

 

[WobblyStroke]

Shoot straight in stop shots - ob within a couple of feet from the pocket and cb about 1 to 1.5 feet from the ob. Hit center cb and use a normal/medium speed stroke, not soft or hard. The goal is to finish each shot with the tip of your cue at least 6 to 8 inches beyond where the cb was before you hit it. The cb should stop dead, no sideways motion or draw or forward roll after it hits the ob. Be honest with yourself when determing whether or not a shot can be called good or not good.

This is a common misconception as this length of follow through is def not desired with many setups and in some cases impossible. If you have a classic stroke with an upper arm parallel to floor and forearm pointing down at the ground at address, sure, this is great and you will probably be able to get 6inches even with short arms. However if you have a lower stance/setup with a lower shoulder, you'd need really long arms to get a full inch past the ball without a severe elbow drop.

I once saw a young lady getting a similar lesson on drawing the ball from her team captain and she was completely breaking down the natural shot mechanics of her chin on cue stance in order to drop the elbow in order to reach a certain point beyond the cue ball. Her elbow would drop, the tip would come up, and she was getting no action at all. I mentioned what I wrote above, leading to a $20 bet from her captain that I won by drawing the table with only my ferule getting past the ball, and then sorted her out with a couple of what golfers would call swing thoughts. Basically it is all about completing the stroke within your setup, understanding that some will follow through more than others. Stay in your setup and speed up till it stops. Another line was, 'get your hand to your shoulder fast'. Obv this was for someone with their shoulder very low as her chin was on the cue so her follow through was naturally going to be short even if she completed the entire range of motion of her stroke. For someone higher off the cue, you will get more follow through before the natural range of motion is spent. And, as mentioned, if you are up high with the classic setup you will get all the way to 6 or even 8inches, but to try to get to that arbitrary distance through the ball without consideration of your own setup and mechanics could do more harm than good.

 

[FranCrimi]

This is a common misconception as this length of follow through is def not desired with many setups and in some cases impossible. If you have a classic stroke with an upper arm parallel to floor and forearm pointing down at the ground at address, sure, this is great and you will probably be able to get 6inches even with short arms. However if you have a lower stance/setup with a lower shoulder, you'd need really long arms to get a full inch past the ball without a severe elbow drop.

Geez...I never thought of myself as having long arms, but maybe I do.....

 

[BC21]

This is a common misconception as this length of follow through is def not desired with many setups and in some cases impossible. If you have a classic stroke with an upper arm parallel to floor and forearm pointing down at the ground at address, sure, this is great and you will probably be able to get 6inches even with short arms. However if you have a lower stance/setup with a lower shoulder, you'd need really long arms to get a full inch past the ball without a severe elbow drop.

I once saw a young lady getting a similar lesson on drawing the ball from her team captain and she was completely breaking down the natural shot mechanics of her chin on cue stance in order to drop the elbow in order to reach a certain point beyond the cue ball. Her elbow would drop, the tip would come up, and she was getting no action at all. I mentioned what I wrote above, leading to a $20 bet from her captain that I won by drawing the table with only my ferule getting past the ball, and then sorted her out with a couple of what golfers would call swing thoughts. Basically it is all about completing the stroke within your setup, understanding that some will follow through more than others. Stay in your setup and speed up till it stops. Another line was, 'get your hand to your shoulder fast'. Obv this was for someone with their shoulder very low as her chin was on the cue so her follow through was naturally going to be short even if she completed the entire range of motion of her stroke. For someone higher off the cue, you will get more follow through before the natural range of motion is spent. And, as mentioned, if you are up high with the classic setup you will get all the way to 6 or even 8inches, but to try to get to that arbitrary distance through the ball without consideration of your own setup and mechanics could do more harm than good.

All of this makes sense, good advice. But I was referencing the op's setup and stroke mechanics. Sometimes the follow through looks normal and sometimes it looks like the stroke is stopped short of a natural follow through.

And of course not every shot requires or allows for a follow through. But when trying to develop consistency with a specfic mechanical skill (or mental skill), repetition is needed.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

hey matt, appreciate the encouragement. may I ask what specifically makes you think so, tho?

Light grip, smooth stroke, tight tip gap, near-level cue stick, good touch and feel, balanced stance, there is some lateral head movement but you seem relaxed and smooth more than tight.

 

[WobblyStroke]

Geez...I never thought of myself as having long arms, but maybe I do.....

Maybe I was exagerating like whoever photoshopped those ape arms on that model. I guess that the inch past ball statement is more true for guys that have an acute elbow angle and don't have a lot of stroke left. Lucky for them the bit that is left is very powerful (think SVB type/style shooters).

 

[WobblyStroke]

Light grip, smooth stroke, tight tip gap, near-level cue stick, good touch and feel, balanced stance, there is some lateral head movement but you seem relaxed and smooth more than tight.

Ye, after watching again, I take back what I said about your 'tight grip'. The issue is not a tight grip, though you do have tension in the wrist to lock it in place which is common. The issue is what BC21 mentioned about you tightening up the grip on some shots and not remaining relaxed throughout the shot. The 2 shots on the 2ball both had some squeezing. The first was obv and perfectly in view of the camera. But as others mentioned, you do deliver the cue pretty nice and smooth on many of the other shots. Even tho u missed them, the shots into side pockets were nicely stroked imo (aiming issue?).

One thing u can work on, Evergruven, is shot selection/pattern play. The ball in hand on the 5ball was just the wrong shot imo. There are many resources that have layouts you can study and determine the best out....before turning the page and seeing a high percentage run of that layout. Thor Lowry sells an ebook with hundreds of layouts with explained runouts and I'm sure there are many others. A decent way to waste a few min on your phone for a pool player.

 

[FranCrimi]

Maybe I was exagerating like whoever photoshopped those ape arms on that model. I guess that the inch past ball statement is more true for guys that have an acute elbow angle and don't have a lot of stroke left. Lucky for them the bit that is left is very powerful (think SVB type/style shooters).

No, I don't think so. These days, most players stay low to the shot, and they have more than decent length follow-throughs.

 

[WobblyStroke]

No, I don't think so. These days, most players stay low to the shot, and they have more than decent length follow-throughs.

depends how low u get ur shoulder to the cue and how much u allow elbow to drop. If you have a big stretch and your shooting arm shoulder is down ala snooker players, you won't follow through far at all. Guys that have a low shoulder and try to not drop the elbow barely get through the ball. SVB gets through by a ferrule (often not even past qb on standard mid speed shots).
Even the guys that do get through the ball well don't go more than an cpl inches. 6-8inches past the ball is excessive and only really achievable with a higher shoulder or big elbow drop.
My fav player is Earl and he is renowned for getting through the ball very well. He almost never goes past the Qball more than 2-3inches (about another qball width maybe a tip more) AND he drops his elbow. On the vast majority of shots, he's about a ferrule thru the ball. When you are that low, you just don't have enough room for such a long follow through. Earl allows his stroke to finish, it just finishes well short of where it would if he were higher off the cue. And that was really my point...you should allow your stroke to finish without doing anything to stop it. For classically set up players that finish may come at 6-8inches beyond the ball, for low setups with no elbow drop, they will barely get through the cue ball. Both are perfectly fine, but you can ruin the latter by trying to achieve a follow through distance appropriate for the former.