Can a player hit down ?

Pacecar said:
Would it be a catastrophe if the 8-ball and rotation games rule-makers just eliminated the double-hit on the cue ball rule? I say - "Let 'em play on" if it is a single stroke (not a push), and the cue tip doesn't hit the object ball. Slow-motion camera shows many double-hits for previously presumed legal hits. BCA regional referees have made a travesty of the official double-hit rule, by allowing unwritten 'rules of thumb' that also filter down to the local BCA leagues and training for new players. If BCA leagues can't effectively enforce their written rule, then remove it.
Allowing the so-called double-hit on the cue ball would allow another 'skill' to be added to a players arsenal.
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Short answer, yes, it would be a catastrophe. In that it would completely change the way the game is played.

If you can intentionally play multiple hits on the cue ball, a lot of close, blocking balls could become irrelevant to your ability to execute the next shot.
 
Guy Manges said:
Hi Dave, I've watched that many times, I have no vision advantages but me, and one of my all time favorite shots is ball close and hit down and I won't let anyone take it away from me... old and play no more because can't, But I have my mind... Guy
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I don't think this shot should be "taken away" either. The multiple hits are not detectable (except from the chalk marks, which aren't "admissible evidence"), so the shot should not be called a foul.
 
David in FL said:
Short answer, yes, it would be a catastrophe. In that it would completely change the way the game is played.

If you can intentionally play multiple hits on the cue ball, a lot of close, blocking balls could become irrelevant to your ability to execute the next shot.
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Yes, thank you...
 
dr_dave said:
I don't think this shot should be "taken away" either. The multiple hits are not detectable (except from the chalk marks, which aren't "admissible evidence"), so the shot should not be called a foul.
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Dave I'm so old that I still think that these power house breaks the tip stays on the cue ball far to long... I can't remember do you have a video of slow motion for a powerful break ? Thank you ... Guy
 
Pacecar said:
Would it be a catastrophe if the 8-ball and rotation games rule-makers just eliminated the double-hit on the cue ball rule? I say - "Let 'em play on" if it is a single stroke (not a push), and the cue tip doesn't hit the object ball. Slow-motion camera shows many double-hits for previously presumed legal hits. BCA regional referees have made a travesty of the official double-hit rule, by allowing unwritten 'rules of thumb' that also filter down to the local BCA leagues and training for new players. If BCA leagues can't effectively enforce their written rule, then remove it.
Allowing the so-called double-hit on the cue ball would allow another 'skill' to be added to a players arsenal.
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That was the Rule before it was changed. There were no double hit fouls before 1982.
The no double hit rule was a disaster.
 
dr_dave said:
For those interested, I have lots of videos showing how to both detect and prevent double hits, with many different techniques, here:

Enjoy!
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Dr Dave i hope that you will be able to read this and understand the importance, This is needed, With you knowledge and acceptance in our pool world, If you could use your influence and communicate with Ian Andersen of WPA, WP B A, and convince him to get with his directors and have the Wording, ( Irrelevant) Removed from their WPA Rules, Someday this would help someone in a great way... This Irrelevant makes arbitrary of much of the rules and can easily be misunderstood... This has actually got pool players hurt... Thank for what you might influence someone to do... Guy
 
Guy Manges said:
Dave I'm so old that I still think that these power house breaks the tip stays on the cue ball far to long... I can't remember do you have a video of slow motion for a powerful break ? Thank you ... Guy
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The tip contact time is actually less at faster speed than at slower speed. Lots of resources supporting this and other related facts can be found here:

 
dr_dave said:
If there is no direct or indirect visual evidence of multiple hits (based on how the balls move), then no foul can be called. For more info and examples, see the videos and other resources here:

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Dr Dave what I am trying to say, With the following of the break cue tip and 200 lbs. Of pressure and the cue tip travels after hit one too one and a half feet it sure looks like a push, am I wrong ? Guy
 
Guy Manges said:
Dr Dave what I am trying to say, With the following of the break cue tip and 200 lbs. Of pressure and the cue tip travels after hit one too one and a half feet it sure looks like a push, am I wrong ? Guy
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Sorry, but I don’t know what you mean. The CB separates from the tip pretty much immediately.
 
dr_dave said:
Sorry, but I don’t know what you mean. The CB separates from the tip pretty much immediately.
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Maybe I've watched to many forceful breaks, I with a naked eye see that cue tip following that cue ball well over a foot after contact... Thank you Dave for what you do...
 
Guy Manges said:
Maybe I've watched to many forceful breaks, I with a naked eye see that cue tip following that cue ball well over a foot after contact... Thank you Dave for what you do...
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That is just a long follow-through not that it's pushing the ball along the tip. Think of it this way, when you strike the cueball there is a tiny pause in the forward motion of the cue as it hits. At that point right after contact on a break shot or any decently hard shot, the cueball is traveling faster than the tip which then goes on to move forward as well but since the ball is faster, it can't catch up again. You would need very fast acceleration of the cue tip after contact to catch up to the cueball to hit it again. Part of this flawed logic is why so many newer players are afraid of hitting a proper draw shot because they are scared the cueball will hit their tip, in their head the logic they use does not match reality, it just "feels" off to them but it's not, laws of nature like physics are pretty hard to break LOL
 
dr_dave said:
Sorry, but I don’t know what you mean. The CB separates from the tip pretty much immediately.
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Another way to think about this: The cue ball and object are in contact for some distance in the initial movement of the cue ball. That "moving together" distance is about three times the amount the tip is compressed. Maybe four times with a really dead tip. The tip doesn't compress much -- maybe a couple of millimeters on a hard shot and likely less for a phenolic break tip.

Another factor: The contact takes less than 2 thousandths of a second -- confirmed by many, many high-speed videos. During that time the speed of the cue ball goes from zero to about 130% of the incoming speed of the stick. Yes, the ball moves faster than the stick. Also during that contact time the speed of the stick drops to only 50% of it's incoming speed.
 
goettlicher said:
Let me check the rule book,
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The wording is vague in the book.
A single hit that consists of multiple contact points is still a single hit.

A double hit is clearly two consecutive hits. But its vague on simultaneous hits. Hits that are not physical like an air barrel. How about electromagnetic hits?

I think the rules only refer to visible and physical hits.
 
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