Standard Table Conditions Discussion

[hurricane145]

Its not clear are you for slow cloth or fast cloth?

Will play on either but would prefer faster cloth.
My pool game grew up in taverns with all kinds of tables, felt, and cue balls.
On tavern tables you usually have to horse the cue ball around.
In pool halls with good quality faster cloth it is a game more of finesse.
Raw muscle doesn't matter, muscle tone does though along with some self control.

 

[skip100]

In the Reminiscences of Golf on St. Andrews Links, Sir James Balfour complained mightily about how much easier the links became once the formerly narrow fairway was enlarged to the current width. He did not bemoan the fact that the sixth green, previously comprised of "earth, heather and shells," was converted to smooth turf.

Slow nap cloth and clingy, cakey balls do not improve the quality of the game. In fact they limit shotmaking and options and make the game easier. Does slow cloth mean you have to hit certain kinds of shots that you wouldn't need to hit on fast cloth? Sure. But slow cloth also takes away many more types of shots that require a more refined level of skill and finesse.

 

[justnum]

Faster cloth makes striking balls easier, a softer stroke is easier to control.
Faster cloth plus template racks means competition play has produced more predictability in table layouts.

Slower cloth can be viewed as a step back for some. The controversial points have been clearly stated.
Newer slower cloth is in development. It will take time to get past the initial resistance.

New slow cloth is being developed to solve the racking problem in pool.
New slow cloth can also bridge table conditions with technology.
New slow cloth will also allow players with limited/reduced visibility to enjoy pool as if seeing it in 20/20.
New slow cloth will have memory and make respotting balls on the table like following a lightup keyboard to teach you to play piano.

Innovations are driven by fiction. The other idea is to just make the fast cloth faster. Looking to the past is the best inspiration for a better future.

 

[boogieman]

Old cloth promotes learning minimum threshold power for strokes.

New cloth is about babying the stroke.

Adapting to both and anything in between is what separates the men from the boys.

 

[justnum]

Adapting to both and anything in between is what separates the men from the boys.

You are making this political. That violates Main Forum discussion protocols.

Pool is to be played by all however finding the best pool players changes by the whims of those financing the future of pool.

Sometimes those whims have motivations that may or may not be quantitatively significant to pool players.

In terms of competition slower cloth is better. Fewer players can hide their speed in slow cloth.

 

[Guy Manges]

Old cloth promotes learning minimum threshold power for strokes.

New cloth is about babying the stroke.

Not any more,watch the Asians on their new tournament clothes, And then justnum, please let me know... Guy, I started out to agree with you until, New cloth is about baying the strokes...

 

[justnum]

Not any more,watch the Asians on their new tournament clothes, And then justnum, please let me know... Guy, I started out to agree with you until, New cloth is about baying the strokes...

If someone grew up on fast cloth and was challenged by someone experienced with both, then what would the outcome favor?

Clearly the stronger player will be favored on both. If I was a sick old person I might think its funny to compete against players untrained on the equipment.

The main argument for slower cloth is it makes players that can adjust to a softer touch on slow cloth faster, than a player that learns on fast cloth and must physically build strength for the slow cloth.

Its like the pool powers designed a power lock for new player strength. Older players will clearly club those baby seals in real action.

 

[boogieman]

You are making this political. That violates Main Forum discussion protocols.

Pool is to be played by all however finding the best pool players changes by the whims of those financing the future of pool.

Sometimes those whims have motivations that may or may not be quantitatively significant to pool players.

In terms of competition slower cloth is better. Fewer players can hide their speed in slow cloth.

Political? Are you on drugs?

You have to adapt to table conditions. Nothing political about that.

 

[justnum]

Political? Are you on drugs?

You have to adapt to table conditions. Nothing political about that.

This is about if the cloth should be slow or fast.
Choose your side.

 

[David in FL]

The old cloth on tables create minimum upper threshold to make sure shots have legs, the gameplay is well documented.

The new cloth does not have that minimum upper threshold. The changes to gameplay are well documented and a subject of controversy.

The emergence of pool is happening on the internet with data records never achieved in the sport.

I just want to argue bring back old table cloth into competition play. Slow nap cloth.

Honest question…

Are you smoking crack?!

 

[justnum]

Honest question…

Are you smoking crack?!

Again too political.

Choose your side slow or fast?

 

[tomatoshooter]

While certain aspects of play require a little more skill on slow cloth, pool is a better game on Simonis, even more so at the amateur level.

For me, it depends on how fast the fast cloth is, and what you mean by amateur level. There are some cloths that are so fast I can't hold the cue ball. I don't think that improves play at the amateur level. On the other hand, with fast cloth you can spin the cue ball with a lot less effort, so that's a benefit. I think the biggest way slow cloth makes the game harder is that you have to amp up your stroke to do a long draw shot and that hurts accuracy. The same thing with 4 rail banks. It's pretty frustrating when your 4 rail bank peters out 6" from the pocket.

 

[sjm]

For me, it depends on how fast the fast cloth is, and what you mean by amateur level. There are some cloths that are so fast I can't hold the cue ball. I don't think that improves play at the amateur level. On the other hand, with fast cloth you can spin the cue ball with a lot less effort, so that's a benefit. I think the biggest way slow cloth makes the game harder is that you have to amp up your stroke to do a long draw shot and that hurts accuracy. The same thing with 4 rail banks. It's pretty frustrating when your 4 rail bank peters out 6" from the pocket.

You make some good points. I'm talking about Simonis 860, the most commonly used cloth today.

By amateur, let's say Fargo 600 or lower, which means most players. In my experience, these players didn't have enough power in their stroke to consistently make the position required of them in nine-ball. Simonis bailed many of them out, giving them cue ball length that they were not up to previously and Simonis also allowed them to hit the balls softer while still making shape, so their pocketing improved. In the days of slow cloth, those with Fargo 600 speed or lower rarely ran a rack.

 

[tomatoshooter]

You make some good points. I'm talking about Simonis 860, the most commonly used cloth today.

By amateur, let's say Fargo 600 or lower, which means most players. In my experience, these players didn't have enough power in their stroke to consistently make the position required of them in nine-ball. Simonis bailed many of them out, giving them cue ball length that they were not up to previously and Simonis also allowed them to it the balls softer while still making shape, so their pocketing improved. In the days of slow cloth, those with Fargo 600 speed or lower rarely ran a rack.

I'm well below 600 and 860 is good on a 9' table. It's a bit faster than I'm used to but I can see how well it plays, even If I can't take full advantage of it. I seem to be more accurate when I let my stroke out and with some of the faster cloths I feel like I'm walking on eggshells. What can be weird is how some cloths roll forever but the cue ball might not slide as much as you would think, other cloths don't roll that far but the cue ball slides, turning you stop shots into draw shots. I definitely feel that slide and roll need to be proportional.

 

[pw98]

If you want jump cues banned from the game just make balls more dense.

Jumping balls off the table feels unnatural.

To solve the problem with old cloth perhaps a magnetized version of the old cloth and magnetized version of the balls would physically lock balls to the table.

Players facing these conditions would have to know direct and indirect hits. Jumping doesnt solve new problems, it just puts more and tear on equipment.

Magnetizing would also increase friction force.

 

[justnum]

Magnetizing would also increase friction force.

Magnetizing solves the tight rack problem without using a template rack. Thanks for agreeing.

If each ball is magnetically sealed to each other, then that is a stable and consistent solution. Would be hermetically sealed or is it more accurate to say electromagnetically frozen?

As for the frictional force increasing that can be controlled by applying an electric field. Ideally the EF and MF should have initial conditions to allow for potentially infinitely long shots. Solutions for those conditions are worth debating.

 

[justnum]

If anyone has free time read up on Physics its called Electricity and Magnetism. The new slow cloth will be designed with E and M principles.

Does anyone know Maxwell's Equations? There is a ton of literature on point charges and fields. Check it out, perfect for this thread.

In short a right hand rule is useful because having a Z axis that is magnetic gives all the desired properties for amazing slow cloth 2.0.

 

[gerryf]

Magnetizing solves the tight rack problem without using a template rack. Thanks for agreeing.

If each ball is magnetically sealed to each other, then that is a stable and consistent solution. Would be hermetically sealed or is it more accurate to say electromagnetically frozen?

As for the frictional force increasing that can be controlled by applying an electric field. Ideally the EF and MF should have initial conditions to allow for potentially infinitely long shots. Solutions for those conditions are worth debating.

Magnetic cloth holding magnetic balls down on the table, and magnetic balls electromagnetically sealed to each other. Clearly, you don't have any background in the physics of magnetism or electric fields. Denser balls. I don't think you know much about pool tables either.

I think you're just trying to provoke a reaction by proposing nonsensical ideas.

Maybe if you actually do think your ideas have merit, you should do some homework and provide some actual technical ideas (like with numbers), rather than technical word salad?

I'd look forward to that.

 

[buckshotshoey]

You are making this political. That violates Main Forum discussion protocols.

Pool is to be played by all however finding the best pool players changes by the whims of those financing the future of pool.

Sometimes those whims have motivations that may or may not be quantitatively significant to pool players.

In terms of competition slower cloth is better. Fewer players can hide their speed in slow cloth.

Again too political.

Choose your side slow or fast?

Dude... you need to put the bong away for a while. How was either of the statements political? Your brain is working about as good a Joe Biden's. THERE.... NOW ITS POLITICAL. See the difference now?

 

[justnum]

Magnetic cloth holding magnetic balls down on the table, and magnetic balls electromagnetically sealed to each other. Clearly, you don't have any background in the physics of magnetism or electric fields. Denser balls. I don't think you know much about pool tables either.

I think you're just trying to provoke a reaction by proposing nonsensical ideas.

Maybe if you actually do think your ideas have merit, you should do some homework and provide some actual technical ideas (like with numbers), rather than technical word salad?

I'd look forward to that.

Professional consulting is not the purpose of the Main Forum.

I would invite everyone to the lab via stream but it requires security clearances you don't have.

As far as getting the language down, lets all be thankful most players play for fun and do not have other motives.

The table of the future whether its a bad iteration or one worth lasting ages is up for debate.

I understand how slow clothers prefer it because of the numbers. How many of you slow clothers understand how the fabric is produced?

The table of the future is an imagination exercise or science test. If anyone wants the results just post about fast cloth.