De-constructing everything!

T

thenaturalpoolplayer

Active member
Ok thought a clean thread for this would be warranted.

Most would agree these are the fundamentals.

  1. Stance (foot placement)
  2. Bridge
  3. Elbow (pendulum etc etc)
  4. Shoulder (not dropping before contact)
  5. Head (don't move it)
  6. Chin, Chest on cue (snooker knows best)
  7. Delivery of cue straight through the cueball
etc etc we all know them whether we employ them. So I decided to try shooting using absolutely none of them.

  1. My Stance purposely twisted all up sometimes with legs crossed
  2. Bridge hand sliding at contact
  3. Elbow not at right angle or inline with cuestick
  4. Shoulder dropping before contact
  5. Head bobbing all over the place
  6. Chin way above the cue stick
  7. Cueing with unintended back hand english...practice strokes are pointing at multiple points on the cueball, keep in mind my bridge hand is sliding during all of this.

Anyway the results are that you can still run a rack (starting with ball in hand) of 10 ball on a 9 ft table with 4 1/4" pockets. If you don't believe me then try it yourself. This isn't really that surprising when you consider the drill (Earl) where you pot a rolling object ball. Think about the quick mental calculations required to do this...and its not even that difficult for our brains to time and "aim" it. Add a rolling cueball for even more fun btw.

This goes with some of the videos on snooker I have been watching where they put the importance on potting the ball, not being obsessed and distracted by going through all steps of a pre-shot routine. The best pool players basically have the same cuing as snooker except for the foot placement. Obviously shooting this way is not nearly as consistent, but it's interesting how well one can shoot even when they abandon the fundamentals.
 
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Welder84

Welder84

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So people try to use clean fundamentals because it is so much easier as a base line. I agree at some point you have to play the hand you are dealt (I have had grip and timing issues my whole pool playing life). Under pressure if you have goofy stuff going on it will limit your game. It's your life, but if you start out with as many good habits as possible the result will be better. Cheers!
 
Tin Man

Tin Man

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
The main point is that the priority in pool is successful execution. That has to be the constant and paramount focus.

If, as part of the strategy to execute, developing fundamentals plays a role, then fine. And often the best way to develop our fundamentals is to continue to focus on execution and let them organically evolve to accomplish our task at hand. On occasion it makes sense to put deliberate focus on one part of your fundamentals for a short time if the organic approach isn't working.

Where the danger occurs for many players is when they allow good fundamentals to become the primary focus of their pool journey. It happens easily. They say "If my fundamentals become stronger my execution will become stronger", and just like THAT their focus leaves execution. They go down weird rabbit holes trying to build themselves into a robot with the belief it will pay off someday. They take the flow out of the game and try to manually control things that are too complicated to consciously control.

I think these are the points the original poster is trying to make. Fundamentals are important but aren't the totality of pool, and not everything has to be consciously micro-managed.
 
hang-the-9

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
thenaturalpoolplayer said:
This goes with some of the videos on snooker I have been watching where they put the importance on potting the ball, not being obsessed and distracted by going through all steps of a pre-shot routine. The best pool players basically have the same cuing as snooker except for the foot placement. Obviously shooting this way is not nearly as consistent, but it's interesting how well one can shoot even when they abandon the fundamentals.
Click to expand...

Snooker players have some of the most solid fundamentals and stance stability of any cue sport, precisely because the equipment they play on is tough to pocket balls on. They just don't take a minute getting into the stance due to spending years practicing it.
 
T

thenaturalpoolplayer

Active member
Tin Man said:
The main point is that the priority in pool is successful execution. That has to be the constant and paramount focus.

If, as part of the strategy to execute, developing fundamentals plays a role, then fine. And often the best way to develop our fundamentals is to continue to focus on execution and let them organically evolve to accomplish our task at hand. On occasion it makes sense to put deliberate focus on one part of your fundamentals for a short time if the organic approach isn't working.

Where the danger occurs for many players is when they allow good fundamentals to become the primary focus of their pool journey. It happens easily. They say "If my fundamentals become stronger my execution will become stronger", and just like THAT their focus leaves execution. They go down weird rabbit holes trying to build themselves into a robot with the belief it will pay off someday. They take the flow out of the game and try to manually control things that are too complicated to consciously control.

I think these are the points the original poster is trying to make. Fundamentals are important but aren't the totality of pool, and not everything has to be consciously micro-managed.
Click to expand...

 
Welder84

Welder84

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Tin Man said:
The main point is that the priority in pool is successful execution. That has to be the constant and paramount focus.

If, as part of the strategy to execute, developing fundamentals plays a role, then fine. And often the best way to develop our fundamentals is to continue to focus on execution and let them organically evolve to accomplish our task at hand. On occasion it makes sense to put deliberate focus on one part of your fundamentals for a short time if the organic approach isn't working.

Where the danger occurs for many players is when they allow good fundamentals to become the primary focus of their pool journey. It happens easily. They say "If my fundamentals become stronger my execution will become stronger", and just like THAT their focus leaves execution. They go down weird rabbit holes trying to build themselves into a robot with the belief it will pay off someday. They take the flow out of the game and try to manually control things that are too complicated to consciously control.

I think these are the points the original poster is trying to make. Fundamentals are important but aren't the totality of pool, and not everything has to be consciously micro-managed.
Click to expand...
I agree, to an extent. However to master organic pool (like a Francisco or Busti) takes a bazillion hours.

If you learn how to step into the shot and deliver a somewhat straight stroke you will probably always have that skill.

I 1000% agree at some point just play. I have seen several instructors who do not break a fargo 575. They look great, but that is it.

Then there are guys like Russian Kenny poking his way to a Fargo 700.

I would rather poke my way to a 700 than look great at a 575 (if those are my only options)

 
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T

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
Tin Man said:
The main point is that the priority in pool is successful execution. That has to be the constant and paramount focus.

If, as part of the strategy to execute, developing fundamentals plays a role, then fine. And often the best way to develop our fundamentals is to continue to focus on execution and let them organically evolve to accomplish our task at hand. On occasion it makes sense to put deliberate focus on one part of your fundamentals for a short time if the organic approach isn't working.

Where the danger occurs for many players is when they allow good fundamentals to become the primary focus of their pool journey. It happens easily. They say "If my fundamentals become stronger my execution will become stronger", and just like THAT their focus leaves execution. They go down weird rabbit holes trying to build themselves into a robot with the belief it will pay off someday. They take the flow out of the game and try to manually control things that are too complicated to consciously control.

I think these are the points the original poster is trying to make. Fundamentals are important but aren't the totality of pool, and not everything has to be consciously micro-managed.
Click to expand...
I don't have any notable standing in the game so maybe I'm not the guy to publicly disagree with you but I will just the same.

I cut my teeth playing snooker, and after about a year of just trying to let the game "flow", I took some hard instruction from the strongest player in my area. I changed nearly every haphazard aspect of my mechanics (fundamentals) at that moment and focused a crap ton of effort in locking down those changes. I can't tell you how much time was spent consciously drilling it into muscle memory. However it has paid off in spades during the decades of play afterward.

The comfort I enjoy by not chasing flaws and merely focusing on execution now is like a warm blanket. I see players of varying experience fighting with "what's wrong" because they don't have anything consciously repeatable in their game. Do I let my fundamentals slip from time to time and shoot regardless...?... yep. However I have that luxury because I know I can lock right back in on the next approach.

I see nothing wrong with hammering down on fundamentals, and chasing a method that works for the individual. Where the problem lies. Is with the players that endlessly tinker and never lock down an approach before trying something new. Tons of players fall victim to this. Pick something, anything..., and stick with it. Once you do, then you're not micro-managing. Your simply going through the motions with the ability to fact check what you've just done.
 
W

WobblyStroke

Well-known member
Mike Malaska, a top golf instructor and former pro player, had an amusing story about putting when he was a young pro... He's on the practice green in Japan using some gadgets and working on his stroke fundamentals but still missing here and there. An old Japanese pro walks over to him saying nothing. The man sets up a few 6 foot putts and proceeds to make them from weird stances, cutting across the ball one way, then the other. As he walks off he looks at Mike and says "Ball in hole, very important".

I tried to get something similar across to a professor ironing out every wrinkle from his already solid stroke. I played a rack with him pivoting around my elbow with the cue coming way outside before dropping back in line at the top. It was a deliberately beyond goofy technique (if you can call it that) and I ended up running out on my 2nd inning. He missed the point and despite my best efforts to explain, he got upset with me that I was toying around with him and not trying lol.

So...the point is... proper fundamentals are full of redundancies and fail safes in the setup making a consistent delivery of the cue more likely. However, that final delivery at contact IS ALL THAT MATTERS. With focus on executing a shot and some timing to get the conditions at contact right, one can play fairly well with seemingly awful form. The subconscious mind can organize a movement around your intention quite well if you let it. But if you make your sole focus your PSR and fundamentals, you switch from thinking about what you are doing (executing a shot) to thinking about how you are doing it (executing a prescribed motor plan).

Back when I started out competing, if anything went wrong during a match or tournament, I tended to try to diagnose the problem and want to fix it, usually with disastrous results. I then adopted a simple mantra of Jim Wyche in my head saying "What, not how" and that simple shift in focus usually fixed anything that was going on with my stroke.
 
Joe_Jaguar

Joe_Jaguar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
thenaturalpoolplayer said:
Ok thought a clean thread for this would be warranted.

Most would agree these are the fundamentals.

  1. Stance (foot placement)
  2. Bridge
  3. Elbow (pendulum etc etc)
  4. Shoulder (not dropping before contact)
  5. Head (don't move it)
  6. Chin, Chest on cue (snooker knows best)
  7. Delivery of cue straight through the cueball
etc etc we all know them whether we employ them. So I decided to try shooting using absolutely none of them.

  1. My Stance purposely twisted all up sometimes with legs crossed
  2. Bridge hand sliding at contact
  3. Elbow not at right angle or inline with cuestick
  4. Shoulder dropping before contact
  5. Head bobbing all over the place
  6. Chin way above the cue stick
  7. Cueing with unintended back hand english...practice strokes are pointing at multiple points on the cueball, keep in mind my bridge hand is sliding during all of this.

Anyway the results are that you can still run a rack (starting with ball in hand) of 10 ball on a 9 ft table with 4 1/4" pockets. If you don't believe me then try it yourself. This isn't really that surprising when you consider the drill (Earl) where you pot a rolling object ball. Think about the quick mental calculations required to do this...and its not even that difficult for our brains to time and "aim" it. Add a rolling cueball for even more fun btw.

This goes with some of the videos on snooker I have been watching where they put the importance on potting the ball, not being obsessed and distracted by going through all steps of a pre-shot routine. The best pool players basically have the same cuing as snooker except for the foot placement. Obviously shooting this way is not nearly as consistent, but it's interesting how well one can shoot even when they abandon the fundamentals.
Click to expand...
Yo 'Natch, how many screen names have you had here on the AZB? :unsure:
 
hang-the-9

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
WobblyStroke said:
Mike Malaska, a top golf instructor and former pro player, had an amusing story about putting when he was a young pro... He's on the practice green in Japan using some gadgets and working on his stroke fundamentals but still missing here and there. An old Japanese pro walks over to him saying nothing. The man sets up a few 6 foot putts and proceeds to make them from weird stances, cutting across the ball one way, then the other. As he walks off he looks at Mike and says "Ball in hole, very important".

I tried to get something similar across to a professor ironing out every wrinkle from his already solid stroke. I played a rack with him pivoting around my elbow with the cue coming way outside before dropping back in line at the top. It was a deliberately beyond goofy technique (if you can call it that) and I ended up running out on my 2nd inning. He missed the point and despite my best efforts to explain, he got upset with me that I was toying around with him and not trying lol.

So...the point is... proper fundamentals are full of redundancies and fail safes in the setup making a consistent delivery of the cue more likely. However, that final delivery at contact IS ALL THAT MATTERS. With focus on executing a shot and some timing to get the conditions at contact right, one can play fairly well with seemingly awful form. The subconscious mind can organize a movement around your intention quite well if you let it. But if you make your sole focus your PSR and fundamentals, you switch from thinking about what you are doing (executing a shot) to thinking about how you are doing it (executing a prescribed motor plan).

Back when I started out competing, if anything went wrong during a match or tournament, I tended to try to diagnose the problem and want to fix it, usually with disastrous results. I then adopted a simple mantra of Jim Wyche in my head saying "What, not how" and that simple shift in focus usually fixed anything that was going on with my stroke.
Click to expand...

It's not that you absolutely need perfect form to be good, but that it's very very rare to see someone good that does not use established mechanics. For every Bustamante there are 20 KOs and Fedors. What a dozen people on the planet can do with unorthodox styles won't help the millions of others that need the consistency or proper mechanics and form.

I always tell people that you want to pocket balls because of your mechanics not in spite of them.
 
W

WobblyStroke

Well-known member
hang-the-9 said:
It's not that you absolutely need perfect form to be good, but that it's very very rare to see someone good that does not use established mechanics. For every Bustamante there are 20 KOs and Fedors. What a dozen people on the planet can do with unorthodox styles won't help the millions of others that need the consistency or proper mechanics and form.

I always tell people that you want to pocket balls because of your mechanics not in spite of them.
Click to expand...
That's a good saying. My point and I hope the point of OP was not that good fundamentals aren't important, but rather that focus on execution of the shot is so important that if you have just that you will do fine, but if you have all the fundamentals from a textbook and spend your mental energy focusing on them instead of the shot, you will struggle.

FWIW, I think Busty's stroke is the most misunderstood in all of pool. I play a stroke similar in style tho nothing near as wild looking unless I'm really just messing about, and can tell you that it wouldn't take nearly as long to get good with it as ppl think. The thing repeats perfectly....it just so happens that it repeats on a slight arc. Most ppl can take something that perfectly repeats and do quite well with it, arc or not.
 
Straightpool_99

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
Pff...
I've seen my share of older pool players with a million aquired mannerisms and random "rain dance" behaviours aquired throughout their careeers. They all tend to be very inconsistent. And when they're off, they have no way to properly diagnose what they're doing wrong, because in general, they have no idea what they are doing, period. What usually happens is that after a period of bad play, they suddenly start playing better due to some change in body position they didn't notice and whatever random thing they think they were doing differently (which is not what caused the change) gets incorporated into the rain dance.

When you have bad technique like this, you need to play often to have any chance of decent results. And really, all you can do is pile on more and more table time, as it's difficult to target the problems when you don't know what they are. Some players are naturally gifted and can actually play consistently well with bad technique, but they are very few and far between. Most of these rain dancers top out as "5 hangers". Thats my name for people who mostly get out with 5 balls placed decently around the table without clusters or problem balls. I guess maybe mid 500 Fargo or below?

When you work on your fundamentals, you get reference points that you can always bring back. This means that if you take time off, you won't suck quite as badly. It also means you know what you are supposed to do, so that you can tell when you're not doing it. Comes in handy when you're playing poorly.
 
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