Rules.....
- Thread starter EL Picos
- Start date
Of course, that is what a referee is there for. They don't just enforce the rules they also clarify them if asked. And it also would depend on what rules exactly you are talking about. They won't read the whole rulebook to you, but asking "what if I miscue on my break" or "Do I need to hit a rail on this shot" before shooting is fine.
What you can't ask a ref, or rather they can't tell you, is how to ensure you comply to a rule. So they can tell you that something is a foul, but they can't tell you how to shoot the shot to avoid the foul.
In the World Standardized Rules, the Regulations cover how the ref is supposed to do his duties, including:
9. REFEREE’S RESPONSIVENESS
The referee shall answer players’ inquiries regarding objective data, such as whether a ball will be in the rack, whether a ball is behind the head string, what the count is, how many points are needed for a victory, if a player or his opponent is on a foul, what rule would apply if a certain shot is made, etc. When asked for a clarification of a rule, the referee will explain the applicable rule to the best of his ability, but any misstatement by the referee will not protect a player from enforcement of the actual rules. The referee must not offer or provide any subjective opinion that would affect play, such as whether a good hit can be made on a prospective shot, whether a combination can be made, or how the table seems to be playing, etc.
Thank you for your answers, I experienced a situation in a tournament this week end, the cueball and an object ball was frozen, I asked to the referee if the balls was really frozen and if I could make a direct push shot, he answered me, play and I will tell you after your shot, I was stunned by this answer, that was in a tournament of federation here in Canada.
In snooker the referee will automatically tell the player if the cue ball is frozen to an object ball. If it is he will say "touching ball".
At snooker all the players know the rules for a touching ball. At pool, most don't as shown by a current discussion on FleeceBunk.
It's possible that your federation has its own set of rules. In any case you need to read through whichever set they use. You may want to bring a copy to events in case you run into officials who are not familiar with the rules. I've seen lots of TDs with that problem.
“Touching ball”
That may have been the correct reply, they can tell you the rule, but not how you need to shoot. So a double hit is a foul, but they can't tell you how to avoid it. There is a rule about frozen balls that you can hit through them directly and it is not a double hit or a push foul, but you can actually do a push or double hit foul in this situation if you are not careful with the tip and depending on the speed.
I can see trying in vain to explain that call to the guy who just rammed it.
I asked for a rule not how to play, just to read what I wrote.....
But whether the balls are frozen is an objective fact which the referee should be able to tell the player.
In both games the ref is required by the rules to announce a frozen (or touching) ball.
OK, but in the OP's second post it implies the ref wouldn't tell him. Perhaps it was ambiguous wording on the OP's part.
I asked for a rule not how to play, just to read what I wrote.....
He can call the balls frozen, but he can't tell you how to shoot it to avoid a foul or what the result of you shooting the shot a certain way would be.
And if I ask if I can shoot directly straight on object ball push shot if balls are frozen, that the same thing to ask for a rule, no? I ask it and after that's me to choose what I do.
Asking that is exactly like asking before a break, if I should send 3 balls behind the line or not on the break to be OK, tell me the difference, nothing is subjective in asking if I cant play the push shot on freezing balls situation?????
There are several facets to this situation.
1) "if the balls was actually frozen" (sic) - Yes, the referee can (and probably should) make that determination.
2) "if I could make a direct push shot" - The referee can inform you that, under the rules, shooting directly through a frozen shot like this does not IN ITS OWN RIGHT constitute a foul.
3) #2 does NOT mean a foul will NOT occur, and therefore a referee cannot tell you whether a foul WILL occur. The referee is correct that they can only tell you whether a foul occurred after the shot.
The question was: can I make a direct push shot?? no more and the correct answer should have been, YESS and no more.
When you say that the referee: PROBABLY SHOULD, make that determination, It tells me that you are not qualified to answer this kind of question, no more.
Probably the best explanation you will get on here. I agree that it is the referee's duty to inform a player if the cue ball is frozen or not. I for one, DO NOT LIKE the relatively new rule that you can shoot directly through a frozen ball. That just opens things up to controversy. Who is to really say a player did or did not "push" the balls? Do you really want an amateur ref making this call? In the old rules you could shoot through the cue ball at an angle to the object ball, thus avoiding the push. Of course by now they've "fixed" the rules so well that there are more controversies than ever before.