Then vs. Now (One More Thread)

[measureman]

All the comparisons between today and yesteryear on who was the best and could they compete today boils down to one thing in my mind and that's who holds up the best under pressure be it tournament or gambling.
You can have all the talent in the world be you are not going to win if you dog it.

Take all the old timers with alleged runs of 600 to 800 balls,how many of them won 14.1 tournaments?

 

[measureman]

Sigel had way too much body movement to be competitive today, frankly, he looks like an APA 4 or 5 in some of the videos I've seen due to his body movement. Can't "steer" the balls in these days son.

Whatever he did he is still the guy with the most tournament wins.
Keith McCready looked awful at the table and didn't play great position but there was a time very few players would play him for the cash.

 

[jasonlaus]

My take is that there are easily more great players today than any other era. But per my previous posts, Prime Sigel would be just fine on today’s equipment. Given his drive to be the best back then, that drive would make him one of the three elite today.

I take umbrage with people suggesting he couldn’t run the same number of racks today. My opinion is that the conditions today are much easier than in his era on a tournament-to-tournament comparison. The balls are better. The rack is better. The cushions are more consistent. And the cloth… Simonis 860 and its followers are better and easier to play on. Not to say Sigel didn’t play on Simonis, but the tour had all kinds of different cloth, yet Sigel won more than anyone by a lot.

The logical proof that Sigel wouldn’t have had problems running the same racks is looking Efren and Earl. Sigel was a better player than Efren. Better breaker. Better shotmaker. Efren didn’t have any problems when Diamonds became the norm. Earl was a better shotmaker, but Sigel was the better position player and tactician. Earl arguably was the Player of the 90’s, with all apologies to Johnny Archer.

Do I think Sigel would be the best today? I honestly do, but not by direct transportation. I based my opinion on the skills I’ve seen and his dominance over peers that didn’t retire, peers that showed that the new standard of equipment wasn’t a difficult transition. Prime Sigel would have to get good with the jump shot. Is there anything else anyone has seen (especially in this semi-finals where he BR’s.. 6 racks that he’d have to get better at?

From the instructional point of view, there are several things that instructors use from Sigel that have made into the standard book of instruction, most importantly the “Finish” in SPF.

So even if Sigel wouldn’t be the best today, he’s easily be in contention. IMO, of course.

Sigel had way too much body movement to be competitive today, frankly, he looks like an APA 4 or 5 in some of the videos I've seen due to his body movement. Can't "steer" the balls in these days sonthe p

Whatever he did he is still the guy with the most tournament wins.
Keith McCready looked awful at the table and didn't play great position but there was a time very few players would play him for the cash.

The point was the players are rock solid these days and wonky body movement isn't going to cut it. 5" pockets sure, 4.25" not so much

 

[Cornerman]

Speaking of equipment, I have a question for those who have been "in the know" through the decades.
I remember a well-known pool guru telling me that tournaments went from 760 to 860 because the pros were unable to control their speed and it didn't make for good tv.
Any truth to this or was he just BSing?
When I bought my first table, I had 760 installed on it because that's what the local room had on their tables. Today it seems 860 is the norm and I have that on my current table. How long did the tour use 760? Did they go from the thick, slow, stroke-demanding cloth right to lightening fast 760? How ling after did they move to 860 ad why

I’d like to hear PT109 and Jay Helfert’s take.

They went from different cloths like Mali and others (Stevenson?). Rubber-backed, no backing, napped, no nap. When 760 can about, it was definitely way faster. And depending on the table it got put on, it would be a silly game. All you could do is lag speed any cut shot on some tables, from this amateur’s perspective.

860 came about because of Greg Sullivan’s lifelong commitment to make pool have standards. He got input from the pros on what they wanted. Today, most tournaments are on Diamonds or Diamond copies. Back then, every table manufacturer were represented (Gandy, Olhausen, Peter Vitalie, Murrey) , including tables that should never have tournaments on them.

 

[Cornerman]

Sigel had way too much body movement to be competitive today, frankly, he looks like an APA 4 or 5 in some of the videos I've seen due to his body movement. Can't "steer" the balls in these days son.

I disagree if we’re talking about Prime Sigel. As Sigel tried to work out of retirement, that Sigel had way too much body motion

 

[JolietJames]

I’d like to hear PT109 and Jay Helfert’s take.

They went from different cloths like Mali and others (Stevenson?). Rubber-backed, no backing, napped, no nap. When 760 can about, it was definitely way faster. And depending on the table it got put on, it would be a silly game. All you could do is lag speed any cut shot on some tables, from this amateur’s perspective.

860 came about because of Greg Sullivan’s lifelong commitment to make pool have standards. He got input from the pros on what they wanted. Today, most tournaments are on Diamonds or Diamond copies. Back then, every table manufacturer were represented (Gandy, Olhausen, Peter Vitalie, Murrey) , including tables that should never have tournaments on them.

Thanks for this response. We didn't have YT back in the day so I didn't get to see these changes to the game.
My experience was from fuzzy felt of the bowling alley bar box to 760 on GCs and Big Gs, to 860 on everything.
It sounds like the guy wasn't blowing smoke when he talked about the 760 switch.

 

[BasementDweller]

I disagree if we’re talking about Prime Sigel. As Sigel tried to work out of retirement, that Sigel had way too much body motion

Do you really not see Sigel moving around and even steering his cue on many of his shots in the most recently posted video? Which is right in his prime. I know I went through this revelation about him a few years back when I started viewing some of his old footage. Before that, I thought Sigel was absolutely textbook.

I still think his alignment was awesome, he just would have had to bear down a bit more with his technique to keep up with today's robots.

 

[Zerksies]

We can't even get a standardized rating system how do you expect us to compare players from years ago.

 

[BasementDweller]

This is the problem. You believe I’m a touch blinded, but your memories of Sigel are in the early 90’s when he was already semi-retired! So give me the benefit of the doubt since he was stronger in the mid 80’s than he was in the early 90’s. I think your assessments are pretty good, but by your own words, you don’t know how good Sigel was.

From a speed of cloth point of view, if you don’t understand the difference in cloth speeds from the mid-80’s tournaments to early 90’s, then we have no baseline to discuss. The cloth speeds being all over the place is one of the big challenges that got solved. Again, just look at Efren playing on some YouTube videos from those years. You’d think he sucked compared to the Efren in the 90’s and 00’s. It was clearly the conditions that made his game look even better in the later years.

I have no doubt Sigel was one of the all-time greats. I just know his technique stood out to a young me as the greatest in the game, and now when I see old footage of him, his technique doesn't jive with my memory of him.

I know a slow table when I see one. Someone please show me a video of a professional match on a slow table from as far back as you can find. The focus on the cloth is somewhat misguided anyway as you can put 760 on a table with dead rails and it will play slow, or you can put Mali on a pinball machine and it will play fast.

Also, I actually don't think it's harder to play on slower cloth. Slower cloth makes it easier to keep your angles as a minor increase or decrease in arm speed doesn't translate to as much of an error on the table. Especially with healthy cushions.

 

[BasementDweller]

We can't even get a standardized rating system how do you expect us to compare players from years ago.

Like this

 

[KissedOut]

No one today is anything like as dominant as Mosconi was in his heyday and it isn't even close.

 

[fastone371]

I have no doubt Sigel was one of the all-time greats. I just know his technique stood out to a young me as the greatest in the game, and now when I see old footage of him, his technique doesn't jive with my memory of him.

I know a slow table when I see one. Someone please show me a video of a professional match on a slow table from as far back as you can find. The focus on the cloth is somewhat misguided anyway as you can put 760 on a table with dead rails and it will play slow, or you can put Mali on a pinball machine and it will play fast.

Also, I actually don't think it's harder to play on slower cloth. Slower cloth makes it easier to keep your angles as a minor increase or decrease in arm speed doesn't translate to as much of an error on the table. Especially with healthy cushions.

The IPT tournament tables seemed to play very slow.

 

[WobblyStroke]

Earl's take when asked this question was that it is harder to win today, not necessarily because the top guys are better but because there are so many more of them at that elite level. That much is true. U aren't seeing bye equivalents in early rounds anymore. Instead, you get FSR vs Corey Deuel. That's your easy game?

Personally I don't think a player at prime Reyes or Earl level exists today. For those saying they never seen the ball cued as well as Filler or Gorst do it...you are just married to a picture of an ideal delivery. There can be no better shot maker than prime Earl Strickland. That guy reached human max for pure cue delivery. He strikes it as pure as Ronnie and that dude is a demigod at this point.

 

[FunChamp]

The top players of any Era would be competitive today. Because they had talent, passion, heart, work ethic. If they had been born into this eras equipment they wouldn't know any different just like today's players. It's not about equipment. It's about the individual.

 

[WobblyStroke]

The top players of any Era would be competitive today. Because they had talent, passion, heart, work ethic. If they had been born into this eras equipment they wouldn't know any different just like today's players. It's not about equipment. It's about the individual.

This. Just like MJ and Kobe would dominate any era to come due to their sheer will and crazy competitiveness and resulting work ethic, guys in the past share this Psycho/world champ gene that drives them to excel even to the detriment of their lives outside their profession. Earl wouldn't be able to live with himself if he wasn't among the very best in the world. Literally a choice between world champ level or suicide. SVB and the other pool equivalents of gym rats also would grind their way to the top in any era, on any equipment. The 'intangibles' ppl speak of when discussing champions apply to all the greats of any era, and those intangibles would pull them thru to the top wherever in history u plop em down.

 

[BasementDweller]

The IPT tournament tables seemed to play very slow.

Good half point. The cloth was slower but the rails were good. BUT guess what? It didn't cause the desired outcome that slow cloth proponents were expecting.

 

[jay helfert]

My take is that there are easily more great players today than any other era. But per my previous posts, Prime Sigel would be just fine on today’s equipment. Given his drive to be the best back then, that drive would make him one of the three elite today.

I take umbrage with people suggesting he couldn’t run the same number of racks today. My opinion is that the conditions today are much easier than in his era on a tournament-to-tournament comparison. The balls are better. The rack is better. The cushions are more consistent. And the cloth… Simonis 860 and its followers are better and easier to play on. Not to say Sigel didn’t play on Simonis, but the tour had all kinds of different cloth, yet Sigel won more than anyone by a lot.

The logical proof that Sigel wouldn’t have had problems running the same racks is looking Efren and Earl. Sigel was a better player than Efren. Better breaker. Better shotmaker. Efren didn’t have any problems when Diamonds became the norm. Earl was a better shotmaker, but Sigel was the better position player and tactician. Earl arguably was the Player of the 90’s, with all apologies to Johnny Archer.

Do I think Sigel would be the best today? I honestly do, but not by direct transportation. I based my opinion on the skills I’ve seen and his dominance over peers that didn’t retire, peers that showed that the new standard of equipment wasn’t a difficult transition. Prime Sigel would have to get good with the jump shot. Is there anything else anyone has seen (especially in this semi-finals where he BR’s.. 6 racks that he’d have to get better at?

From the instructional point of view, there are several things that instructors use from Sigel that have made into the standard book of instruction, most importantly the “Finish” in SPF.

So even if Sigel wouldn’t be the best today, he’s easily be in contention. IMO, of course.

Mike knew how to win! Grab them by the throat and never give an inch. He just didn't make any mistakes when the money was on the line. You can check Mike's records on the early Accu-Stats reports. He had far fewer errors than any other player. His partner Nick gave him the most trouble with Earl second. Did you know that eleven times in a row when Mike reached the finals he won! Not eleven tournies in a row, but eleven times reaching the final. I officiated five or six of them.

Efren was an innovator, first with his super accurate kick shots and ability to hit hidden balls from anywhere on the table. Then his soft and delicate position play got the attention of all the big bangers of his era. His cue ball seemed to slowly creep into position on it's last roll, over and over again. Finally Efren knew short cuts and back doors around the table, playing position shots that no one else was using. His 9-Ball break held him back from even more victories. If Ten Ball had been the game back then Efren would have reigned supreme!

I want to add my take on Earl in his prime when he was winning more than anyone else. He had the 9-Ball break shot wired (he practiced it!) and once he got on the one ball (or two) it was all over. What a lovely thing to watch, Earl in his element; one, two, shoot, one, two, shoot. Two practice strokes and then shoot, all the way through the rack. The way he maneuvered the cue ball, weaving it in and out for perfect (close up!) position on every shot. It was mesmerizing! We just sat in awe as he chalked up rack after rack, break and run, break and run, break and run. Six or seven racks in a row per match was the norm for him. Only a five rack run was a bad match by comparison. No one could keep up when Earl found his gear, and I mean NO ONE! Until Parica, but that is another story.

I agree with you that there are far more strong players today, mostly coming from Europe and now the Middle East as well. My theory is the Money makes a difference. As the prize money continues to increase the attraction of a pool career also increases. What may seem like relatively small money to us in America might look far different from another perspective. Even in the doldrums of pool, the Filipinos found it very lucrative to grab five or six thousand like it was low hanging fruit.

 

[BasementDweller]

Earl's take when asked this question was that it is harder to win today, not necessarily because the top guys are better but because there are so many more of them at that elite level. That much is true. U aren't seeing bye equivalents in early rounds anymore. Instead, you get FSR vs Corey Deuel. That's your easy game?

Personally I don't think a player at prime Reyes or Earl level exists today. For those saying they never seen the ball cued as well as Filler or Gorst do it...you are just married to a picture of an ideal delivery. There can be no better shot maker than prime Earl Strickland. That guy reached human max for pure cue delivery. He strikes it as pure as Ronnie and that dude is a demigod at this point.

You pegged me fairly accurately when you mentioned being married to a picture of an ideal delivery. But then you went too far when you said Earl reached human max. Earl may have been the best pocketer for his time, but he was limited by several things, one of which was the demands of the equipment. Earl actually has pretty wonky technique, with his shoulder off the shot line and a onorthodox grip, just to name a couple things. Of course he made these things work but you just don't see anybody cueing like him anymore. So there's a long list of today's potters I'd take over a prime Earl in a potting competition. The thing is, as the equipment continues to evolve, players more and more resemble snooker players. This isn't by mistake but by necessity.

Golf went through this same technique evolution. Long gone are the swings of Chi-Chi Rodriguez and Lee Trevino. I can tell you as a non-golfer that I can't tell the difference between any of their swings now.

Human psychology is huge too. There were particular shots that players used to think were difficult, especially the 14.1 guys, but then they saw Earl firing balls in and not only did he raise the bar, but newer players then had different expectations for themselves. That's just how it goes.

So did Earl reach max potential? Far from it, but he certainly opened up new possibilities of achievement for the entire pool world.

 

[BasementDweller]

No one today is anything like as dominant as Mosconi was in his heyday and it isn't even close.

Totally different world. There were just a handful of players on his level. Now we are in what may turn out to be another golden age for pool, and it's a truly global game now. Also, the format of the game doesn't really allow domination.

I guess I am just blown away by the international talent on display in the pool world right now. We are in uncharted waters here and Matchroom really has a chance to explode this thing into something big.

 

[BasementDweller]

The top players of any Era would be competitive today. Because they had talent, passion, heart, work ethic. If they had been born into this eras equipment they wouldn't know any different just like today's players. It's not about equipment. It's about the individual.

Of course this is true, but let's just pretend you didn't write this, otherwise we would be obligated to end the thread.