Quitting Winners Question

measureman said:
I play cheap one pocket on Saturday mornings.
I can play from 10 AM to 2 PM or so before I'm tired and need to stop(I'm 75).
If I'm up a couple games or so I just say I'm done and we will put the games I'm ahead on the wire for next time.
I don't play to make a little score,I just want to play and would rather not play for fun but I will if there's no option.
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That’s fair, keeping the games on the wire, small $ and age are all understandable and acceptable. If you know who you are playing and those are the terms at the beginning. I’d play anyone I know with those terms. That’s social pool for $ that’s not “action or gambling”.

Both social and hardcore action appeal to me and both have separate sets of rules.

Playing someone a $1000 set and winning and just pulling up without agreeing to it beforehand is VERY bad and knocks your reputation where I’m from. The winner is obligated to give the loser a shot at his $ again unless it was stated before the game ever started or $ posted. All those rules need to be agreed upon ahead of time.

Agree to the contract, post, play. That’s action pool done properly. When that doesn’t happen there is a huge potential for problems. Not if but, WHEN! There WILL be problems. You have to manage your action at all times with everyone. Period. No exception. When it don’t work out blame yourself not the other guy. It’s on the player to protect his action and manage his game-period. Not blame the other guy.

Again small $ among friends is different.

Best
Fatboy<———manages his action
 
leto1776 said:
Pretty sure quitting when ahead is called winning.
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I agree with this completely.

Question....I took a game one time that I had the worst of. Didnt realize it until the match started. Somehow, someway, I was able to pull it out in the first set.....though if we played 10 times, I would likely lose 10.....though in this instant, I did somehow manage to win. My question is this.....am I wrong to walk away. Because it literally wasnt gambling. For him, it was taking candy from a baby. I can play, but he was far superior and he knew it. He made a good game and possibly decided to try to hustle a bit by dumping the first set or whatever....maybe he was trying to entice me to play for more money.

But am I wrong for pulling up winning, paying the time and calling it a day or should I have just given the money back since its the "right" thing to do. I own the fact that I accepted the game and had the worst of it with almost zero chance of winning. It was my mistake. How I won.....either he was off a bit or he dumped.....regardless, I won the first set. Close set but nonetheless, I won.

My position concerning my game vs his has been confirmed over the years. I have seen him play a number of times since our matchup and I vastly underestimated how we matched up. Thats on me and I own that. But was I obligated to continue to play. He is far superior in all areas. Continuing wouldnt have been gambling, it wouldve just been giving the money back. And if he didnt dump, then I somehow outran the nuts. If he did dump, then the attempted hustle (which I am fine with) is no different than me quitting winner (which I am also fine with). As a friend I mine told someone one time who was upset over someone quitting winner.....you're trying to inject ethics into something that is could be considered somewhat unethical to begin with. I dont agree that gambling is unethical but I do agree with his point.....there arent rules. The rule is to finish ahead. Period. Anything other than that is between the two parties but IF and only IF there is an unwritten rule, that rule should be you are completely free to walk at any point.

Not trying to be confrontational at all. Just curious as to thoughts.

For what its worth....I think he dumped the first set because when I told him I was quitting, he couldnt believe it, I explained my reasoning and he just smiled. He knew that I now knew how far apart we were. No hard feelings though I dont think he was happy to lose that money.

I agree with Fatboy's post too though....it may kill your action or give you a not so good reputation as far as matching up. But it doesnt make you wrong. In fact, it makes you a wise gambler. Billy Incardona is known as a very very careful game maker. He is wise. Its not about heart or ego or pride or whatever.....its about winning. I bet he has won so much more than he has ever lost. Kudos to him in my opinion.

Thoughts? :)
 
To the OP. The $5 you mentioned, may not be what's really going on.
The person maybe workin' the guy, stirring up his bu$ine$$.
Or he may not like the guy and wants to be rude.? Or maybe he's.......
Lookin' for a grudge match. :) with more meaning.
Or they may both be idiotic ball bangers.
Or, this person may not know about etiquette in life.

Yah never know what lurks in the minds of men.
 
ShootingArts said:
I thoroughly enjoyed the story later in the thread about the old man with the hundred dollar bills. A master shark move and it worked perfectly. It does remind me of Jackie Gleason in the Hustler. After playing all night Newman looks like a skid row bum. Jackie freshens up a bit in the bathroom, slips his jacket on, puts a fresh carnation on his jacket, looks as fresh as he was when he walked in. Newman thought he was getting ready to leave. Jackie looks over at Newman, "Ready to play some pool Eddie?" The smirk on Newman's face crumbles and you can see he is toast. Perfect acting by both of them!
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Yeah, he won on character. I wouldn't be happy about getting beaten like that but I'd have to tip my hat. He didn't do anything rude or out of line, just did the normal things but in a way that broke his opponent. That's why I like to play the old heads, you learn stuff that you can't any other way. I gotta go find an octogenarian to take me to school.
 
billb said:
I agree with this completely.

Question....I took a game one time that I had the worst of. Didnt realize it until the match started. Somehow, someway, I was able to pull it out in the first set.....though if we played 10 times, I would likely lose 10.....though in this instant, I did somehow manage to win. My question is this.....am I wrong to walk away. Because it literally wasnt gambling. For him, it was taking candy from a baby. I can play, but he was far superior and he knew it. He made a good game and possibly decided to try to hustle a bit by dumping the first set or whatever....maybe he was trying to entice me to play for more money.

But am I wrong for pulling up winning, paying the time and calling it a day or should I have just given the money back since its the "right" thing to do. I own the fact that I accepted the game and had the worst of it with almost zero chance of winning. It was my mistake. How I won.....either he was off a bit or he dumped.....regardless, I won the first set. Close set but nonetheless, I won.

My position concerning my game vs his has been confirmed over the years. I have seen him play a number of times since our matchup and I vastly underestimated how we matched up. Thats on me and I own that. But was I obligated to continue to play. He is far superior in all areas. Continuing wouldnt have been gambling, it wouldve just been giving the money back. And if he didnt dump, then I somehow outran the nuts. If he did dump, then the attempted hustle (which I am fine with) is no different than me quitting winner (which I am also fine with). As a friend I mine told someone one time who was upset over someone quitting winner.....you're trying to inject ethics into something that is could be considered somewhat unethical to begin with. I dont agree that gambling is unethical but I do agree with his point.....there arent rules. The rule is to finish ahead. Period. Anything other than that is between the two parties but IF and only IF there is an unwritten rule, that rule should be you are completely free to walk at any point.

Not trying to be confrontational at all. Just curious as to thoughts.

For what its worth....I think he dumped the first set because when I told him I was quitting, he couldnt believe it, I explained my reasoning and he just smiled. He knew that I now knew how far apart we were. No hard feelings though I dont think he was happy to lose that money.

I agree with Fatboy's post too though....it may kill your action or give you a not so good reputation as far as matching up. But it doesnt make you wrong. In fact, it makes you a wise gambler. Billy Incardona is known as a very very careful game maker. He is wise. Its not about heart or ego or pride or whatever.....its about winning. I bet he has won so much more than he has ever lost. Kudos to him in my opinion.

Thoughts? :)
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Obv the right play is to quit him.
I know if I was a world beater I'd def push for a culture in which quitting winners was so rude I'd just outlast anyone 'doing the right thing' till they quit me behind. Goading a weaker player into a sucker's bet by questioning their honor/character/integrity has worked countless times for countless hustlers. Good on you for realizing what was up, not being a child about it, and smartly walking away from a losing proposition. I also like that you spelled it out to him and explained your thinking. Who wouldn't smile at that? lol

Then there is the subset of dudes like the old man in the OP fall into...guys that actually play for honor. They just love the story of each game so much that a mere one frame back and forth loss leaves them so unsatisfied. Afterall, how can someone just walk away without letting them reclaim their honor and prove they are the better player (he was by a long ways btw). And they will do it against others to a fault resulting in either picking games very carefully or just only ever quitting behind against better players.
 
Fatboy said:
You are 10000% right.

quit ahead and see who will step up and give you action

quitting ahead is losing
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Same in anything with gamblers. Years back a young Finnish internet poker pro started getting invited to big live cash games. After hitting and running several times, they stopped inviting him.
 
billb said:
I agree with this completely.

Question....I took a game one time that I had the worst of. Didnt realize it until the match started. Somehow, someway, I was able to pull it out in the first set.....though if we played 10 times, I would likely lose 10.....though in this instant, I did somehow manage to win. My question is this.....am I wrong to walk away. Because it literally wasnt gambling. For him, it was taking candy from a baby. I can play, but he was far superior and he knew it. He made a good game and possibly decided to try to hustle a bit by dumping the first set or whatever....maybe he was trying to entice me to play for more money.

But am I wrong for pulling up winning, paying the time and calling it a day or should I have just given the money back since its the "right" thing to do. I own the fact that I accepted the game and had the worst of it with almost zero chance of winning. It was my mistake. How I won.....either he was off a bit or he dumped.....regardless, I won the first set. Close set but nonetheless, I won.

My position concerning my game vs his has been confirmed over the years. I have seen him play a number of times since our matchup and I vastly underestimated how we matched up. Thats on me and I own that. But was I obligated to continue to play. He is far superior in all areas. Continuing wouldnt have been gambling, it wouldve just been giving the money back. And if he didnt dump, then I somehow outran the nuts. If he did dump, then the attempted hustle (which I am fine with) is no different than me quitting winner (which I am also fine with). As a friend I mine told someone one time who was upset over someone quitting winner.....you're trying to inject ethics into something that is could be considered somewhat unethical to begin with. I dont agree that gambling is unethical but I do agree with his point.....there arent rules. The rule is to finish ahead. Period. Anything other than that is between the two parties but IF and only IF there is an unwritten rule, that rule should be you are completely free to walk at any point.

Not trying to be confrontational at all. Just curious as to thoughts.

For what its worth....I think he dumped the first set because when I told him I was quitting, he couldnt believe it, I explained my reasoning and he just smiled. He knew that I now knew how far apart we were. No hard feelings though I dont think he was happy to lose that money.

I agree with Fatboy's post too though....it may kill your action or give you a not so good reputation as far as matching up. But it doesnt make you wrong. In fact, it makes you a wise gambler. Billy Incardona is known as a very very careful game maker. He is wise. Its not about heart or ego or pride or whatever.....its about winning. I bet he has won so much more than he has ever lost. Kudos to him in my opinion.

Thoughts? :)
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billb said:
I agree with this completely.

Question....I took a game one time that I had the worst of. Didnt realize it until the match started. Somehow, someway, I was able to pull it out in the first set.....though if we played 10 times, I would likely lose 10.....though in this instant, I did somehow manage to win. My question is this.....am I wrong to walk away. Because it literally wasnt gambling. For him, it was taking candy from a baby. I can play, but he was far superior and he knew it. He made a good game and possibly decided to try to hustle a bit by dumping the first set or whatever....maybe he was trying to entice me to play for more money.

But am I wrong for pulling up winning, paying the time and calling it a day or should I have just given the money back since its the "right" thing to do. I own the fact that I accepted the game and had the worst of it with almost zero chance of winning. It was my mistake. How I won.....either he was off a bit or he dumped.....regardless, I won the first set. Close set but nonetheless, I won.

My position concerning my game vs his has been confirmed over the years. I have seen him play a number of times since our matchup and I vastly underestimated how we matched up. Thats on me and I own that. But was I obligated to continue to play. He is far superior in all areas. Continuing wouldnt have been gambling, it wouldve just been giving the money back. And if he didnt dump, then I somehow outran the nuts. If he did dump, then the attempted hustle (which I am fine with) is no different than me quitting winner (which I am also fine with). As a friend I mine told someone one time who was upset over someone quitting winner.....you're trying to inject ethics into something that is could be considered somewhat unethical to begin with. I dont agree that gambling is unethical but I do agree with his point.....there arent rules. The rule is to finish ahead. Period. Anything other than that is between the two parties but IF and only IF there is an unwritten rule, that rule should be you are completely free to walk at any point.

Not trying to be confrontational at all. Just curious as to thoughts.

For what its worth....I think he dumped the first set because when I told him I was quitting, he couldnt believe it, I explained my reasoning and he just smiled. He knew that I now knew how far apart we were. No hard feelings though I dont think he was happy to lose that money.

I agree with Fatboy's post too though....it may kill your action or give you a not so good reputation as far as matching up. But it doesnt make you wrong. In fact, it makes you a wise gambler. Billy Incardona is known as a very very careful game maker. He is wise. Its not about heart or ego or pride or whatever.....its about winning. I bet he has won so much more than he has ever lost. Kudos to him in my opinion.

Thoughts? :)
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The quitting winner mythos is just one more of the things hustlers use to try to manipulate others. All hustling large or small relies on manipulating others. "I am a smart gambler." If you do the same thing, "You are a f-king nit!"

No exaggeration to say I quit ahead hundreds of times. When people whined I'd tell them that I wasn't going to live long enough to quit loser! For years I walked into a place and bought a beer or drink with a hundred dollar bill. When I peeled it off the server could see that it was backed up with at least one other hundred dollar bill on the outside of a healthy sized wad. When I headed for a table it looked like a school of piranhas around me!

Hustling ethics are a myth, always have been. The only ethic a hustler has is get the cash. Doesn't matter how. The hustlers around me were a source of entertainment watching them try moves large and small. They were constantly trying a new angle on me, I was known to always have money. Most of the time I had a legitimate business or two so I always had operating capital.

One of my greatest entertainments was when one of these hustlers outlaid the cash like stalling on a pool table to trap me. Then after they handed me the money, I ducked! Probably saved them money since the average small time hustler didn't stand a snowball's chance in hell of beating me when they came off the stall but sometimes it was fun to leave them furious that they had given their money away!

Gamblers aren't necessarily hustlers. Just good manners to tell them if you only have one barrel with you or can only play so long. Also, give as much warning as possible if you get ready to leave. The bet can be adjusted for a last set or last few games. I will usually allow somebody to double the bet, however, if I agree to double or nothing after the other player is multiple bets down they might as well hand me the money and go rest their feet, they don't stand any chance of winning.

Hu
 
WobblyStroke said:
Same in anything with gamblers. Years back a young Finnish internet poker pro started getting invited to big live cash games. After hitting and running several times, they stopped inviting him.
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To me, poker seems different.
How long are you supposed to stay, long enough for everyone to get even?
You have to play bad hands to give money back, make ridiculous calls?

At least in pool you can negotiate the sets, with 1 or 3 being the preferred method to me.
 
tomatoshooter said:
Yeah, he won on character. I wouldn't be happy about getting beaten like that but I'd have to tip my hat. He didn't do anything rude or out of line, just did the normal things but in a way that broke his opponent. That's why I like to play the old heads, you learn stuff that you can't any other way. I gotta go find an octogenarian to take me to school.
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Reminds me of an old "Gunsmoke" episode about a young hustler and an old gambler who was having to hustle a bit himself. Difference was the old man had a lifetime of savvy. When they brought in a youngster to beat him he said no problem, he could win on savvy alone! "Cowtown Hustler" was the episode.

Not an example of it here but age and cunning often beats youth and skill. A youngster often gets himself in a bad game and even after being beaten doesn't realize it was because he was in a game he should never have been in to begin with.

I had an old man beat me for months. I was the better player on the table but he had the smarts. I was determined to figure out how to beat him and after losing to him all that time I finally found the key. I beat him, twice. Once he realized I had found the key he simply quit playing me. He didn't feel any need to lose a penny back! Those were cheap lessons though. I lost hundreds and I made thousands over the next ten or twelve years applying what I had learned dealing with him.

Hu
 
Should Fast Eddie have quit after beating Fats out of over 10 (?) grand? (100K in today’s money). After playing all day & all night, dead on his feet and drunk with glory (and whisky), was definitely the time to leave (IMHO). How much more would getting Fats to cry uncle really be worth? Only a ‘born loser’ would stay and lose it all back.
 
you dont quit winner bcause you are winner thats being a sucker. as you may have way the best of it and can win a bunch more.

you quit winner because you have other priorities, its a bad game, the opponent isnt one you want to continue
being around, you are getting tired or lost your stroke and realize you cant win from there on.
all legit reasons and ones to use.

but be prepared to present your quitting with a solid reason that he should accept or giving a time to play.
some idiots wont ever let you quit without a hassle and that is part of the game.

but as ive said before i usually give them a time i have to go in advance, and might extend that of couse. and always give them the option to raise the bet to any amount they want or offer to flip a coin double or nothing stating you are giving him a proper gamble.
 
maha said:
you dont quit winner bcause you are winner thats being a sucker. as you may have way the best of it and can win a bunch more.

you quit winner because you have other priorities, its a bad game, the opponent isnt one you want to continue
being around, you are getting tired or lost your stroke and realize you cant win from there on.
all legit reasons and ones to use.

but be prepared to present your quitting with a solid reason that he should accept or giving a time to play.
some idiots wont ever let you quit without a hassle and that is part of the game.

but as ive said before i usually give them a time i have to go in advance, and might extend that of couse. and always give them the option to raise the bet to any amount they want or offer to flip a coin double or nothing stating you are giving him a proper gamble.
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I agree with everything you wrote above, except for the last sentence. You've been playing a few hours, up a few sets and have to get home to wifey poo - you offer to flip a coin for double or nothing? To me that's crazy, as you are instantly converting the situation from wagering on competitive skills to pure gambling based on random luck. I'm constantly amazed at how many pool players don't make a distinction between wagering and gambling.

I'm generally of the old school mentality, of don't quit up - unless circumstances force you to. Aside from the mindset of allowing a guy to try to win back his money (vs running out of time), if I'm up by a decent amount, I'll happily allow them to jack the bet (and offer it myself, if they don't request), as that's how you generally bust someone and crush their soul which is always the real goal :ROFLMAO:. To me, the more annoying cheezeball move, is if I'm playing someone fairly cheap and happen to be down and they don't quit - but also won't allow me to raise the bet.

Cheers ✌️
 
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The session is over when either player quits. The winner of only a single game is no determination of who is ’best’ (it’s who leaves with the most money, not who has the most stamina). Upping the bet is fine within reason, but no way I would let someone win back in a singe game what I had spent all day beating him out of. Good gambling manners though would naturally dictate the offer of a repeat session, but never with any guarantee of it’s length. If that is unacceptable, he can always refuse.
 
DynoDan said:
The session is over when either player quits. The winner of only a single game is no determination of who is ’best’ (it’s who leaves with the most money, not who has the most stamina). Upping the bet is fine within reason, but no way I would let someone win back in a singe game what I had spent all day beating him out of. Good gambling manners though would naturally dictate the offer of a repeat session, but never with any guarantee of it’s length. If that is unacceptable, he can always refuse.
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That is the way it goes. The winner has the cash and the leverage. There were some very good players that were famous for being able to be badgered into bad games. I was going to do whatever was best for me.

Over the years I have known at least a dozen small time hustlers that would always talk about the gambling code and call the other player a nit. Whatever it took to get in action with the other person in a bad position. Not one of those little fellas had the morals of an alley cat.

It was "the code" you had to keep playing and adjust to suit the loser or you were a nit. Of course the code changed nonstop to suit the hustler.

I never had a problem getting action because of the way I played. After awhile a particular hustler would be skint up enough they didn't want to play because they couldn't win. It wasn't because they didn't want to play me, they tried to get me in a dice or card game every time I came in the door. Always told them I was a one trick pony, pool was my game.

Hu
 
i always got good action and also was known as one who almost always won. but i made myself fun to play with, always had money. and gave a good gamble.
plus offered to raise the bet anytime my opponent wanted to. and if i was the one who wanted to quit and he didnt i gave him any option. including flipping a coin for what i was up. of course no one ever took it but it was a legit offer to show i would give any even gamble they wanted.

i still if ever am accused of not willing to gamble, i will offer to flip a coin for what ever they want up to what they have in their pocket.

its an even gamble and an even gamble is the same as doing nothing if you gamble over time and dont look as each bet as a final event.
and when you bet it isnt a personal thing. win or lose you move on.
 
I preface with how many games I have time for. Just went out to pick up food last night. Stopped at a local bar for a quick game nearby. Got on a table and a patron asked if I wanted to play, I said sure how about 20 a game, but I only have time for a couple racks. He says ok let's play for 10. I let him pick the rules and break. He says scratches behind the head string. I win the first game, he says double or nothing, sure. Second game comes down to my 2 balls each I scratch off an unlucky carom. My 9 is left and he had two solids. Takes ball in hand to shoot MY 9 with easy position on the 8. I mentioned that we were playing in the kitchen. He says no, I already scratched in the first game and played from the head string ... ok whatever. He shoots my 9, and leaves straight in on the 8. I say that was my ball. And shoot the 8 for the win.

I collect 20 and he wants to play again. Sorry, got to run. Told him I have an order that's ready... bye-bye
 
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