Is gambling required at the higher skill levels?

Maybe.

It tends to put a damper on fun quite often, so I avoid it, even with friends where it's like $5 or $10 a set. I think leagues and tournaments are as good of a way to get good at competing without the one-on-one animosity when you are playing for money. In a tournament the competition is spread around, you are not trying to either hustle a single person or trying to show them up, it's you against everyone else.

I play because I like the game and I like the challenge it brings out in getting better, if I happen to win playing that way, it's a bonus. I don't go out to win as a goal or to get extra money or to prove by winning money that I'm better. I have to turn down games from people quite often since some half drunk guy wants to challenge the guy with his own cue and thinks playing for money is the way to do it.

Gambling all the time is just some testostorone macho thing combined with con men and scammer ideas. Those guys sitting in India sending out fake bank info to steal money are doing the exact same thing as pool hustlers and league sandbaggers.
 
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To me, pool and golf were made to play for money.

Long story for another time, but I played a round of golf with Graham McDowell a couple years ago. On the first tee, I clapped my hands and said, “OK, what’s the game?!” He looked at me, grinned and nodded. Then that little Irish shit went out and shot 62. Maybe the best 50 bucks I ever spent… 😁

It doesn’t need to be much, but a little something on the line makes it a lot more enjoyable for me. It’s a way to keep score that means a little bit.

Better players are usually going to want to play for a little bit, especially if they are matching up against the less skilled player. If not, there’s simply not usually enough there to keep their interest, unless they’re just giving lessons out of generosity.

As FatBoy says, it puts some value on their time and your own time, too. If you want to toughen up and get better quicker, it gives you a good reason to want to not lose, and is a good way to do it.
 
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I am not much to play for fun. I have a table at home and do plenty of that.

when I am out and about I prefer to match up and play for money. With most of my buddies it’s $10/game 1p or 20/50 sets. I find it keeps us interested in the game and trying to play our best while not having to miss a mortgage payment.

bigger money is always an option but more with people I don’t consider close friends, but don’t like to gamble big with good buddies
 
Cuedup said:
However, I just have a hard time finding quality players to match up with
and hone our skills without gambling becoming involved and I'm wondering if that's just how it is or am I in a bubble and need to search eslewhere?
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azb gambling thread.png

to the op
here is my take
the "old school" players came up on
you had to pay your dues and there is no "funsies" pool
its part of the mind set
" i cant play unless there is something on it"
looking at
playing for the art/enjoyment of the game vs i am going to beat you and win some money too
is the real philosophical difference.
my speculation is
you are enjoying the journey and want to see can you become a master of the game
that in and of itself allows you to try your best all the time with no added incentive needed
you are not comparing yourself "am i better than him" but am i playing to my potential
the gamblers need to prove they are better by winning
its as much the gambling as it is the playing
i think it will be hard to find people with skills to spar with for no money
but you might be able to find someone you pay the time for /buy a few drinks
to pay for your "lesson"
jmho
icbw
last i recommend you enter tournaments where you are "dead" money
that will get you competition and the players will be giving their best
playing cheap and especially for free
you are probably not getting the better players "A" game
one last thing
there is a difference in playing under pressure vs no pressure
money on the line adds a dimension that you need to get used to the pressure if you do end up going for trophies
 
There's a general mindset that believes you have to pay - as in "Pay some?" It's the most common way pool is taught. The onus is on you to figure it out. Be that as it may, while advanced players won't waste time showing you the ins and outs for low or no pay, there is no reason you must go that route. You can learn many things much more efficiently by just bothering to work them out. Every time you improve, you pass another bunch of players without wasting any time trying to beat them.
 
I have two main speeds. "Play to learn" vs "play to win".

Play to Learn:
This is 90% of time I spend at the table. Whether it be solo play, league, or cheap sets. I tend to look at nearly every questionable opportunity has chance to further expand my tool bag, and grow more accustomed to sticking my neck out when it could cost me nothing more than the win. This is an opportunity to experiment with shot selection. Which allows me to measure my abilities and outcomes of questionable choices. I will accept a game from anyone with nothing on the line at anytime. However, this is training time and my game play is representative of that.

Play to Win:
This is tournament play or a match up with stakes that fall on my scale of 'give a crap'. During this 10%, my internal difference engine regarding shot choices, patterns, safeties, etc, is cranked to minimize risk. The goal to apply the 'learning' I did the other 90% of the time. I bear down on every shot. Measure several options against other, and basically grind out every rack like it's the final of the world championships.

The Point:
Can I play without a bet...?..., certainly. Should an opponent expect my top gear if nothing is on the line...?..., nope. They can expect to be more entertained though. When there's zero risk the 5 railer is always the choice over the 1....lol.

Do I prefer to have something riding on the set...?..., sure? I'm not a heavy (as in frequent) gambler, but I don't have a problem sticking my neck out. What I do enjoy is the pressure. I don't care how much someone will tell you that pride is enough. You play differently when there a monetary risk based on your performance. How much needs to be on the line is relative to individual. $1k to someone is $20 to another.

Some people are just wired for the pressure of the bet. I don't always see it as a goal to profit from the weak. Although that's certainly the case at times. Those who tend to follow the 'profit' mentality also don't tend to swim in deeper waters. I prefer the bet because I want to practice performance under pressure. That comes only with having something on the line.
 
David in FL said:
To me, pool and golf were made to play for money.

Long story for another time, but I played a round of golf with Graham McDowell a couple years ago. On the first tee, I clapped my hands and said, “OK, what’s the game?!” He looked at me, grinned and nodded. Then that little Irish shit went out and shot 62. Maybe the best 50 bucks I ever spent… 😁

It doesn’t need to be much, but a little something on the line makes it a lot more enjoyable for me. It’s a way to keep score that means a little bit.

Better players are usually going to want to play for a little bit, especially if they are matching up against the less skilled player. If not, there’s simply not usually enough there to keep their interest, unless they’re just giving lessons out of generosity.

As FatBoy says, it puts some value on their time and your own time, too. If you want to toughen up and get better quicker, it gives you a good reason to want to not lose, and is a good way to do it.
Click to expand...
Yup, I agree. I always compared pool to poker when it came to gambling. Ever try playing poker for fun? It just doesn't work.

At this stage of my life, I couldn't care less about the winning or losing a few bucks playing the game I enjoy so much. I just like to bet something to keep score and make us both play hard.

When I'm playing with my buddies, we normally play 10 or 20 a game and if someone is off and happens to take a beating, more times than not we let each other off the hook and tell him to pay time. Often an argument breaks out because the guy wants to pay, and the winner doesn't want to take the money. That's the kind of gambling I enjoy.

On the other hand, if I know someone's only intent is to get into my wallet, I enjoy those games considerably less.
 
Cuedup said:
I must suck at communicating.

Gambling isn't really my thing. I just like to play but those of similar skill level or higher always end up wanting to gamble.
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Just admit it: you have a problem.

We would not expect one as deep into the sin to admit his allegiances with Babylon but surely you must know that men far and wide are aware of your addiction to gambol and that is why everyone asked you to bet something.

Those of us who have not yet asked have not yet met you. Truth.
 
On a tangential note, you may just consider paying a significantly better player for a "lesson" (not a "formal" lesson). Not the same thing as matching up, but I know for a fact it can improve your game.

You can get to the point where you can beat 90% of the people you know or are in your league. The issue becomes that there is a huge jump from the 90th Percentile to even the 91st Percentile. That 10% are typically seeing and playing a totally different game than you are.

I'd get a spot from those folks, but I hated it because I wanted to be able to play straight up. That probably was not a realistic goal. I got to know some in the 10% really well and we all liked each other. With a couple of them, I sort of knew when and where they went to work on their game alone. I'd start showing up, and after a while I'd approach and just ask if I could pay them for an hour lesson. Not a structured "lesson" but let's play a few games of 8 Ball or 9 Ball and have them comment on what I was doing well and what I was missing.

Like I said, it was only a couple guys and not very often, but the ones I picked understood what I was after, and I got invaluable critiques on my game. I took that, learned and perfected it and began to be able to play better against those that were at the bottom of that next tier of skill level. Of course, as many have stated, those matchups will be for money.

I had not seen one of the guys I took "lessons" from in a while, but I was playing in the City Championships and running out a very difficult 8 Ball layout. After I pocketed the 8 Ball, I noticed him. He smiled, shook my hand and said, "You're about 2 balls better than the last time I saw you play."

I was still was not anywhere near playing with a solid 10 percenter, but my approach did improve my game considerably.
 
bbb said:
last i recommend you enter tournaments where you are "dead" money
that will get you competition and the players will be giving their best
playing cheap and especially for free
you are probably not getting the better players "A" game
one last thing
there is a difference in playing under pressure vs no pressure
money on the line adds a dimension that you need to get used to the pressure if you do end up going for trophies
Click to expand...
Thanks. I don't mind the small tourneys and do well in them. Once they get sizable it's more waiting than pool and spending 10 to 18 hours for relatively few matches just isn't my thing. Though I definitely agree it's a good place for competition for the price of entry. I totally get money on the line adding that dimension. I'll gamble cheap sets and do regularly but it seems the higher the skill level the less interest. There seems to be a tipping point where pool primarily becomes a financial endeavor rather than one of love of the game.
 
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Once you are good enough to beat everyone that you play against for no money on the line, you can really only improve by playing against those significantly better than yourself in order to truly observe and understand where you need to elevate your game.

95% of the time this will involve gambling, tournament play, or paid for lessons with a highly skilled instructor - maybe all three! It is rare to find someone much better than you who will play with you often enough and provide constructive criticism.
 
My sales pitch was, "The money is a way to keep score. I play for money. Whatever is comfortable." Quarters is fine with me. All the money that I have in my pocket is available.
I respect players that reply, "I don't gamble". The reason only matters when I come back an hour later to find them playing my wife for $5 a Game.🤷
 
DeeDeeCues said:
I enjoy playing for the beauty of the game. Gambling cheapens the experience.

I find it somewhat pitiful when people claim that they need to bet on order to play their best. I play my best only out of desire to play my best.
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I know the chances i play a shoot and stop safe instead of a bank with tough shape when I am playing for money are way higher than if I am playing for fun.

Maybe funsies cheapens the experience?
 
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