Face square?

[BilliardsAbout]

And I've been asking you to name the pro players who have stances to where their necks are so strained that they would rather tilt their head or even worse, position it off line, rather than adjust their stance. You said Morra. Your are wrong. If Morra made any adjustments to his game, it was his feet, not his head.

You and Matt are spinning and spinning and spinning so much that you don't even know what's up or down anymore. Stop with the head tilt business and stop with Matt's head off line nonsense. You're confusing people who want to improve.

I work with older students who try to imitate a number of pro moves and have hurt their backs and necks. You have also, so stop with your personal attacks (I DO know up from down) and stick with the FACTS.

I've seen--I hope other forum readers also see--the moment I (or many other teachers or pros) disagree with you in the slightest--especially when they have the facts on their side in an argument--you make personal attacks. Stop making general attacks like "You don't know what you're talking about" and stick to the FACTS if you're going to debate a pool concept.

 

[WobblyStroke]

And I've been asking you to name the pro players who have stances to where their necks are so strained that they would rather tilt their head or even worse, position it off line, rather than adjust their stance. You said Morra. Your are wrong. If Morra made any adjustments to his game, it was his feet, not his head.

You and Matt are spinning and spinning and spinning so much that you don't even know what's up or down anymore. Stop with the head tilt business and stop with Matt's head off line nonsense. You're confusing people who want to improve.

Fran, I've been nothing but consistent in my posts through this thread. No spinning, just the same thing over and over trying to get ppl to understand that 1- squaring face is fine in most stances. 2- if you are very sideways and have to turn your head a lot, you can strain your neck and over time develop some serious pain as a result (Morra is a perfect example of that). I didn't even want to come into this thread with your back and forths with Matt, but your absurd dismissive post railing against true statements as convoluted spin people would be stupid to go along with forced me to chime in. Bc it is statements like that that can be damaging to students and confuse ppl.

Introducing a large head turn to square the face CAN cause strain. You wanted proof so I gave you Morra... Squaring his face hurt him so much he literally changed sides. That's the whole point. He could have adopted a right handed style that has a less turned head to alleviate stress on his neck. He chose to keep his vantage point the same and continue to play square but switched to left handed, where his turn to get square is not as extreme because he still cues under his left eye.

How are you even digging in further? Honestly all that needed to be said to clear this up has been said. You've shown a proclivity for misreading posts in this thread so maybe just go back and read my posts which are consistent. You want examples of pros with tilted heads, there's plenty of them just go watch some pool. It's not that they adopted those because they got strained, but they avoid extra strain by playing this way. I'm no TV pro, but I play left eye forward from the right side myself. From personal experience I can tell you this is far more comfortable and stresses the muscles of the neck way less. The OP in this thread also reported less discomfort since quitting squaring his face and playing with a more natural tilt for how he stands. Besides, this is obviously true; the less you have to turn your head in your stance, the less potential strain you put on your neck. Morra's massive career-changing pain also started out as a very slight strain from turning his head too far in his stance.

 

[Dan White]

Besides the fact that Mike Sigel is having neck issues--which you well know--and everyone knows his stance, you are now arguing against me indirectly while attacking another forum member.

Talk to me directly or don't talk.

Where did you hear that Mike Sigel is having neck issues? What specifically are the issues?

 

[FranCrimi]

Where did you hear that Mike Sigel is having neck issues? What specifically are the issues?

Don't bother. You won't get any straight, concise answers. He's in full spin zone now in skirting the real issue, and this time he's dragging the other person along with him. Now it's all about who has neck issues. The real issue at hand is that they have yet to state which of these players addressed their 'neck' issues by keeping their stance the same and either tilting their head or placing their head off line as the remedy, regardless of the cause.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

I work with older students who try to imitate a number of pro moves and have hurt their backs and necks. You have also, so stop with your personal attacks (I DO know up from down) and stick with the FACTS.

Where did you hear that Mike Sigel is having neck issues? What specifically are the issues?

From Mike--his game is off and he has been pursuing chiropractic and alternative therapies. Thanks for your concern.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Don't bother. You won't get any straight, concise answers. He's in full spin zone now in skirting the real issue, and this time he's dragging the other person along with him. Now it's all about who has neck issues. The real issue at hand is that they have yet to state which of these players addressed their 'neck' issues by keeping their stance the same and either tilting their head or placing their head off line as the remedy, regardless of the cause.

Huh?

The next ten times you drive an interstate for two hours, with your hands on the wheel, torso and head looking straight ahead, turn your head and neck to the one side (then rotate your eyes to see the road, so you don't crash your car). The unnatural position and the sameness (always turned to the one side) will cause discomfort, even perhaps chronic pain.

You are telling players to do the opposite in pool (right handers will always be rotating their head to the left) when they square their face, which can compromise vision center AND hurt the neck AND . . . you know as well as I how many pros have a chin centered over the stick but their head is rotated (to match the torso without discomfort).

I am surprised you're using a one-fits-all for teaching, since many pros don't square the face, but not surprised that you continue to make personal attacks ("you are spinning") without addressing the FACTS/human anatomy relating to pool. Stick to the FACTS if you're going to debate a pool concept.

 

[Dan White]

From Mike--his game is off and he has been pursuing chiropractic and alternative therapies. Thanks for your concern.

When did he tell you that?

 

[BilliardsAbout]

When did he tell you that?

I hope his health has improved since he told me. If you have an update, please share it--so I can also stand corrected.

Thank you.

 

[Dan White]

I hope his health has improved since he told me. If you have an update, please share it--so I can also stand corrected.

Thank you.

Just wondering when he told you that...

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Just wondering when he told you that...

Don't hold your breath...

pj
chgo

 

[Dan White]

Don't hold your breath...

pj
chgo

Doesn't seem to be too difficult a question.

 

[FranCrimi]

Huh?

The next ten times you drive an interstate for two hours, with your hands on the wheel, torso and head looking straight ahead, turn your head and neck to the one side (then rotate your eyes to see the road, so you don't crash your car). The unnatural position and the sameness (always turned to the one side) will cause discomfort, even perhaps chronic pain.

You are telling players to do the opposite in pool (right handers will always be rotating their head to the left) when they square their face, which can compromise vision center AND hurt the neck AND . . . you know as well as I how many pros have a chin centered over the stick but their head is rotated (to match the torso without discomfort).

I am surprised you're using a one-fits-all for teaching, since many pros don't square the face, but not surprised that you continue to make personal attacks ("you are spinning") without addressing the FACTS/human anatomy relating to pool. Stick to the FACTS if you're going to debate a pool concept.

I'll ask this once again ---- Show us proof of all the pro players who have (or even anticipate) neck strain due to their stances who make adjustments to relieve that issue by keeping the same stance and tilting their head or moving their head off line. These are your claims, Matt. Stop the spinning and cut to the chase. Who does this? Name them.

 

[FranCrimi]

Fran, I've been nothing but consistent in my posts through this thread. No spinning, just the same thing over and over trying to get ppl to understand that 1- squaring face is fine in most stances. 2- if you are very sideways and have to turn your head a lot, you can strain your neck and over time develop some serious pain as a result (Morra is a perfect example of that). I didn't even want to come into this thread with your back and forths with Matt, but your absurd dismissive post railing against true statements as convoluted spin people would be stupid to go along with forced me to chime in. Bc it is statements like that that can be damaging to students and confuse ppl.

Introducing a large head turn to square the face CAN cause strain. You wanted proof so I gave you Morra... Squaring his face hurt him so much he literally changed sides. That's the whole point. He could have adopted a right handed style that has a less turned head to alleviate stress on his neck. He chose to keep his vantage point the same and continue to play square but switched to left handed, where his turn to get square is not as extreme because he still cues under his left eye.

How are you even digging in further? Honestly all that needed to be said to clear this up has been said. You've shown a proclivity for misreading posts in this thread so maybe just go back and read my posts which are consistent. You want examples of pros with tilted heads, there's plenty of them just go watch some pool. It's not that they adopted those because they got strained, but they avoid extra strain by playing this way. I'm no TV pro, but I play left eye forward from the right side myself. From personal experience I can tell you this is far more comfortable and stresses the muscles of the neck way less. The OP in this thread also reported less discomfort since quitting squaring his face and playing with a more natural tilt for how he stands. Besides, this is obviously true; the less you have to turn your head in your stance, the less potential strain you put on your neck. Morra's massive career-changing pain also started out as a very slight strain from turning his head too far in his stance.

Let's define what a head square to the shot means. It means that the head is straight relative to the target, and facing it, where at least one eye is squarely, entirely or partially or the center of the face is over the target line. In this definition there is no head tilting and the entire head is not next to the line of the shot where no eyes are over the line.

Matt's point is that due to the nature of the pool stance, many pros place their entire head off the shot line to avoid neck strain. He also advocates tilting your head. His logic leading up to this may have points that are valid, which is where you keep tripping yourself up by agreeing with him, but his conclusion is dead-to-nuts wrong. His reasoning does not lead to the conclusion he makes. Not by a mile.

Pros can play an entire lifetime of pool with their heads square to the shot without damage. Why weren't they all making Matt's adjustments if neck strain was such an issue?

You are validating him by agreeing with his reasoning but you seem to be ignoring or even worse, attaching a different meaning to his conclusion.

Morra had pain issues. I don't know what caused them. An accident? A stance that was out of wack and off balance? Whatever the reason, he had the ability to shoot with his other hand and switched over, thus relieving the pain caused by his outstretched arm/shoulder that was damaged that may have also affected his neck, which happens to be very close to his shoulder. His head was not tilted at the line, nor was his head off line after his adjustment.


That's what this entire conversation is about --- head completely off line and head tilted.

 

[FranCrimi]

I work with older students who try to imitate a number of pro moves and have hurt their backs and necks. You have also, so stop with your personal attacks (I DO know up from down) and stick with the FACTS.

I've seen--I hope other forum readers also see--the moment I (or many other teachers or pros) disagree with you in the slightest--especially when they have the facts on their side in an argument--you make personal attacks. Stop making general attacks like "You don't know what you're talking about" and stick to the FACTS if you're going to debate a pool concept.

People who have medical issues are not what's in discussion here. You said that many PRO PLAYERS choose to place their heads off-line in order to avoid neck strain. Who are they? And where are the ones who tilt their heads also?

As far as those with medical issues, many have come to me with all types of medical issues. Our compromises always started with the feet position and those adjustments were always satisfactory. (This does not include grip hand issues of course.) I never had to recommend to anyone to place their head off-line or tilt it. And I've seen a lot. Maybe you should learn how to adjust a player's stance rather than take their head off the shot line.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

People who have medical issues are not what's in discussion here. You said that many PRO PLAYERS choose to place their heads off-line in order to avoid neck strain. Who are they? And where are the ones who tilt their heads also?

As far as those with medical issues, many have come to me with all types of medical issues. Our compromises always started with the feet position and those adjustments were always satisfactory. (This does not include grip hand issues of course.) I never had to recommend to anyone to place their head off-line or tilt it. And I've seen a lot. Maybe you should learn how to adjust a player's stance rather than take their head off the shot line.

You are continuing personal attacks, yet I'll respond, since you've made false facts also:

1) I am not "spinning" (your continued personal attack used to substitute for true facts), I am presenting facts of anatomy and reality.

2) "Matt's point is that due to the nature of the pool stance, many pros place their entire head off the shot line to avoid neck strain. He also advocates tilting your head." I wrote neither thing nor do I ever teach head tilt or ever teach "head off the line to avoid neck strain". You may be confused since you recently balked when I suggested head off line as part of a teaching drill for aim and trust--not neck strain avoidance--so I'll let that go. Again, both my teaching and books and websites never advocate either false position above.

3) Another personal attack was "learn how to adjust a player's stance" -- I have helped hundreds of students, in person, adjust their stance. Just last week on a AZ thread I helped people adjust their stances to avoid, even cure, lower back pain.

4) I NEVER WROTE "many pros hurting". I wrote that many students (who don't play five hours a day since their youth to accomodate a low, sometimes stretched pro stance) are getting hurt by "everyone square" since square is NOT meant for everyone, but for some. Then YOU WROTE "name a pro" and I responded "Mike Sigel", whose hurt has been credited to needing to square his face against his unusual stance. You and I both ought to know our student's health profile if they play more casually than a pro and have any unusual stance positions.

Any normal person, who stands with feet and heels together erect, then steps forward with their left foot, then bends from the waist and or hips, and also stretches the left hand several feet in front of the right hand, develops a degree of torso angle, the head and neck then naturally move with the torso and turn off the original squared position. SOME teachers then advocate squaring the face.

I DO advocate squaring the face in the pool stance IF it doesn't compromise aim (since as you know MANY PROS do NOT square their face when their head is on the shot line, their head remains rotated with the torso, not stretched against the torso) and IF it doesn't cause them to hurt. A 6'4" player with a big, wide stance, especially if their left foot is far from parallel to the shot line, whose head comes about 30 degrees rotated above the shot line NOT tilted, is going to be unhappy if YOU TELL ALL YOUR STUDENTS TO SQUARE.

My conclusion is you are picking a fight just to pick a fight. At least debate WHAT YOU TEACH, since I'm sure you don't tell ALL your students to square their face. You have no students who've played at an A or even a shortstop level for 20 years with a rotated head?

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Don't hold your breath...

pj
chgo

Unneeded.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Doesn't seem to be too difficult a question.

It wasn't, one of us is concerned with the timeline, the other with the man's health. Unneeded sarcasm.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

It wasn't, one of us is concerned with the timeline, the other with the man's health.

Actually, one of you is concerned with the truth, the other is dodging. I think all here can see who's who.

pj
chgo

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Actually, one of you is concerned with the truth, the other is dodging. I think all here can see who's who.

pj
chgo

It was several short years ago, I don't recall the date, I could go through email, I suppose, and tell you the exact minute, but I don't see a need to dodge "Say, Matt, when did you first learn Mike Sigel uses a chiropractor?" but I do see a need to reprove people when they are rude. YOU ARE THUS AGAIN REPROVED.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Ok, now we are going too far in the other direction. Squaring the face MAY cause neck pain if you play a ton like pros and have a kinda extreme sideways stance like Siegel or Morra. However, for the vast majority of players who play 10 or less hours a week rather than 40+ like pros, the neck thing shouldn't be much of an issue, esp if they have a more standard stance which I'm pretty sure Fran teaches as well, so it's certainly unfair to say she's hurting students.

And yes, I really do regret butting my head into this spat of yours. Just didn't want students misled by one coach's misinterpretation and dismissal of another coach's sound advice. I'm checking out now. Yall enjoy one another, preferably in DMs as I believe this has been cleared up and anyone tuning in further is just here for the drama...which never ages well.

I apologize for my delay in responding to your post.

I appreciate your concern and your facts. I agree the neck thing does not become a big issue, it merely gets aggravated with more unusual stances.

But it's not "my spat" since I'm not spatting, I'm citing facts, and receiving from someone else misquotes and personal attacks. I'm using reasoning and logic, not spatting, the more so since "spat" is "unimportant argument" and Fran could actually cause someone to hurt their game and/or their neck!