Tuck and Roll

[tim913]

I believe some aiming systems may require ‘feel’, but mine is the simple ‘contact point’, requires no feel at all. It is very precise with, to me, a well defined target. Please spare me the ‘curvature of the spheres’ speech. My brain has long compensated for that years ago through thousands of hours of practice. If you use a ghost ball, or twisting parts of your body to get the results you want then maybe that does require ‘feel’, don’t know.
What does require ‘feel’ or ‘touch’, to me, is delivering the CB to that contact point with the draw, drag, stun or a combination of those to get the CB to my next line

 

[Patrick Johnson]

As was said before, this seems like Back Hand English. Can you tell me what the difference is?

It's swiping (angling the cue during the stroke to compensate for squirt). Backhand english is angling the cue first and then stroking straight at that angle - the method he demonstrates as the "worse" alternative.

I've spent considerable time making sure I don't swipe the CB and feeling much better about a straight stroke.

You're doing it right.

What is the advantage of the swipe??

There is no advantage. The way he does it - setting his bridge length to match his "pivot length" so he doesn't need to judge the cue angle needed to compensate for squirt - is actually easier and more reliable without the swipe.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I believe some aiming systems may require ‘feel’, but mine is the simple ‘contact point’, requires no feel at all.

How do you know when your CB contact point is aimed at the OB contact point?

pj
chgo

 

[tim913]

How do you know when your CB contact point is aimed at the OB contact point?

pj
chgo

I couldn’t care less about CB contact point on OB contact point, maybe if you use a track aiming system it would matter, but I do not. I care about tip position on CB and contact point on OB.

 

[tim913]

Like I said, through thousands of hours of practice my brain has compensated for the ‘curvature of the spheres’ which causes some players to contact a point on the OB other than their intended contact point.
When I play
I don’t even see the balls as round, just an aiming point on a target

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I couldn’t care less about CB contact point on OB contact point

They have to connect to make the shot.

...through thousands of hours of practice my brain has compensated for the ‘curvature of the spheres’

That's what we call "feel" - recognizing the correct CB/OB "overlap" through repeated practice.

I use the OB contact point too - I aim CB center a memorized distance from it based on the cut angle. Memorizing and recognizing the correct distance for each different cut angle is done "by feel".

pj
chgo

 

[tim913]

They have to connect to make the shot.


That's what we call "feel" - recognizing the correct CB/OB "overlap" through repeated practice.

I use the OB contact point too - I aim CB center a memorized distance from it based on the cut angle. Memorizing and recognizing the correct distance for each different cut angle is done "by feel".

pj
chgo

It’s not feel for me at all. Just like aiming a rifle at a point on a target. I don’t feel anything it’s a precise point on a target I’m aiming at. On a rifle if you’re not contacting the target where you want you adjust the sights. In pool my brain has made the adjustments so I’m aiming a a contact point on the OB .. no feel at all
Edit:
I’m aiming at a pinpoint spot on the OB, no overlap or superimposing one ball over the other. Now I have to be doing that subconsciously to make it work but not consciously at all. I’ve played other pros and had lessons from pros and they’ve told me they do the same thing. If you’re consciously overlapping it sounds like ghost ball or a modified version of it

 

[Patrick Johnson]

It’s not feel for me at all.

That's the place we all strive to reach. Glad you're there.

Just like aiming a rifle at a point on a target.

Well... a rifle with no sites at an invisible point.

The fact you do it so well is proof of your extensive practice with it.

...my brain has made the adjustments so I’m aiming a a contact point on the OB .. no feel at all

Yes, I've practiced my method enough that it feels like that to me too. Thankfully, the fact that I know better doesn't make it any harder - just the opposite, in fact: knowing how it works helps me use and improve it.

And, by the way, I don't think seeing it the way I do is necessary in order to play your best - but I assume there are readers on this discussion forum who appreciate hearing the "science".

pj
chgo

 

[Jimmorrison]

So many people, so full of shit. You guys are arguing about something, that hasn’t even happened. Look at the vid. Terry Bell, on his last prestroke, aims right where anybody would. There is no tuck, or roll, or throw, or any other BS. Watch the vid closely, especially the last shot.

 

[straightline]

There are several alignment references available in CG. Once you establish where the stick goes and where to point it, there is no further aiming to do. It is however, still vital to make detailed observations of how shots act in the first place. I think aiming a rifle might or can be like this. I don't shoot but it seems to me if you can accurately locate the gun barrel in your hologram, you needn't be peering through the sights at a microscopic entity. IOW you can use references outside the sights to set your aim.

 

[Quesports]

Like I said, through thousands of hours of practice my brain has compensated for the ‘curvature of the spheres’ which causes some players to contact a point on the OB other than their intended contact point.
When I play
I don’t even see the balls as round, just an aiming point on a target

Once your brain knows what you’re trying to do it will tell you if you’re right or wrong. So yes I wholeheartedly agree with your comment about hours and hours of practice. When my brain says you’re not cutting it enough I reset, start over and make the shot a large majority of the time.

Practice and repetition combined with solid repeatable fundamentals is how you play at a high level. Aiming systems are not the magic bullet people think they are.

 

[straightline]

My point about all this is, players still miss. They do get up and continue until error strikes again. Not a lot of performance competence in the mass or the method it would seem.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

As far as I'm concerned, after the video of Terry Bell explaining and showing how to perform Tuck and Roll, most all posts so far are excellent ways of how NOT to play pool. Buddy Hall, one of the greats of the game, originally had a video explaining tuck and roll and how to use it. But put it on a forum where everyone is an expert as well as a Hall of Famer in their own mind and look out! Buddy has no clue what he's talking about. Pivoting? Oh Lord, do that and you'll never make another ball for the rest of your life with an angled cue and have to give up the game.
LMAO! Keep 'em coming...

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Once your brain knows what you’re trying to do it will tell you if you’re right or wrong. So yes I wholeheartedly agree with your comment about hours and hours of practice. "When my brain says you’re not cutting it enough I reset, start over" and make the shot a large majority of the time.

When your brain says you're not cutting it enough and reset, start over...you're looking for a different CB to OB overlap or orientation. That's called AIMING. Maybe you have a different word but it's the sad truth.

Practice and repetition combined with solid repeatable fundamentals is how you play at a high level. Aiming systems are not the magic bullet people think they are.

What is?

 

[SpiderWebComm]

As was said before, this seems like Back Hand English. Can you tell me what the difference is?
I've spent considerable time making sure I don't swipe the CB and feeling much better about a straight stroke.

What is the advantage of the swipe??
Serious question!!

Terry answers your question in the video. Your assignment is to watch it as many times as it takes to hit home with you.
Btw, he's illustrating it dynamically. It can be done with a pivot and then HOLD. From there take your stroke with an angled cue.
Still don't understand? Get on the table and hit a bunch of balls.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I couldn’t care less about CB contact point on OB contact point, maybe if you use a track aiming system it would matter, but I do not. I care about tip position on CB and contact point on OB.

You don't seem to care about something that's absolutely necessary for contact point aiming which IS the CB contact point. It's equal and opposite to the contact point you've determined on the OB. PJ even said it in one of his posts but let it go and didn't follow up.
Joe Tucker, pro player and pro instructor is the top person out there who teaches contact point aiming. I took multiple lessons in person with him. You must have the CB contact the OB contact point with an equal and opposite spot. He even invented contact point training balls. They are geometrically sound. What are you focusing on with the CB to strike the OB contact point? It has to be something.

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[sparkle84]

Terry answers your question in the video. Your assignment is to watch it as many times as it takes to hit home with you.
Btw, he's illustrating it dynamically. It can be done with a pivot and then HOLD. From there take your stroke with an angled cue.
Still don't understand? Get on the table and hit a bunch of balls.

The video is simply a way of (what a lot of old timers call coming across the face of the ball) applying english using little subtle hand or wrist movements.

It's been going on since Hector was a pup. What's really baffling is it doesn't correlate with your OP. That seemed to be a way one particular person rotated his wrist to effect different cuts on the OB.

English was never mentioned.
Have a nice day.
Your friend, Sparkle.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

There are several alignment references available in CG. Once you establish where the stick goes and where to point it, there is no further aiming to do. It is however, still vital to make detailed observations of how shots act in the first place. I think aiming a rifle might or can be like this. I don't shoot but it seems to me if you can accurately locate the gun barrel in your hologram, you needn't be peering through the sights at a microscopic entity. IOW you can use references outside the sights to set your aim.

I think you need to shoot 500 - 1000 rounds of any and all calibers with handguns and rifles before coming to the conclusions that you have.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

The video is simply a way of (what a lot of old timers call coming across the face of the ball) applying english using little subtle hand or wrist movements.

True...

What's really baffling is it doesn't correlate with your OP. That seemed to be a way one particular person rotated his wrist to effect different cuts on the OB.

That is also true...it can be done and is done if shown how and practiced.

 

[sixpack]

Somewhere between 20 - 25 years ago I was in a pool room and there was an old guy at a table knocking balls around by himself. What I noticed was he very rarely missed. So, I asked him if he wanted to just beat some balls around together and he said "sure".

We played 8-ball and I was getting waxed every game. Luckily no money was involved, and it was all for fun since he would have busted me because his ball making was incredibly accurate. I noticed that he did something with his hand on every shot except straight ins, so I asked him what it was and why he did it. He didn't use the words "tuck and roll", and at that stage of my life I never heard about it or knew what it was.

But what he said was on straight in shots, he aimed center CB to COB to center pocket and kept his right wrist straight and locked with the back of his hand. On cuts to the right, he still aimed CCB to COB but on the take away in the backstroke he turned the back of his hand so it faced toward the ceiling. And on cuts to the left, he still aimed CCB to COB but on the take away in the backstroke he turned his hand so the back of his hand faced towards the floor and his wrist was bowed out. I had no idea what the hell he was talking about and thought he was pulling my leg. He then said on more severe cuts he does the same thing but aims for a 1/2 ball alignment and then uses the hand and wrist.

I didn't try any of it there but did remember it and gave it a good hard workout and learned how to do it once I got a table of my own some years later.

THAT was the real definition of "FEEL". To be able to manipulate your hand and wrist the right amount to get the tip and shaft orientation in just the right position and angle to pocket angled cut shots. Not guessing with the eyes going back and forth for some imaginary fraction or contact point. It's referred to as aiming by "feel", but it's really not tactile which is what "feel" is.
Btw, his position play was extremely accurate, well played and a part of it.

Don't knock it until you try it.

There is something to this. One time I tried to emulate Bustamante by placing my cue tip on the table and envisioning how I wanted to hit the shit and just letting it fly. I was very surprised at how well I pocketed balls and got shape.

Something about just letting instinct take over can be very powerful.