No dispute that Efren is the GOAT, but who is the 9 ball GOAT?

sjm said:
Let me clarify as we're in a grey area here. Let's start by noting that WPA only came into existence in the late 1980s, and that the first of the modern World 9-ball championships was in 1990. Before that, there was no world championship having a truly international field and World 9-ball titles meant less.

For example, Earl Strickland's BCA Hallof Fame blurb credits him with the World 9-ball Championship in both 1984 and 1988, but on his Wikipedia page, it omits these.

Here's Sigel's BCA Hall of Fame blurb:

Mike Sigel, at 35, became the youngest male elected to the BCA Hall of Fame. Born in Rochester, N.Y. Sigel began playing pool at 13, and turned professional when he was 20. A natural right-hander who shoots left-handed, Sigel won his first major tournament, the U.S. Open 9-Ball Championship, in 1975. His career blossomed quickly, and Sigel was perhaps the game's dominant player in the 1980s. He amassed 38 major 14.1 and 9-ball championships in that decade. Sigel has won three World 14.1 crowns (1979, 1981 and 1985) and one World 9-Ball title (1985) as well as numerous national titles.

In other words, the HOF credits Sigel as having won the 1985 World 9ball title, but as I've noted, this was before the modern era world championships as we now know them.

Like I said, World 9-ball titles before 1990 lie in the grey area.
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raphcleary said:
I think the 9-Ball Goat Is Earl without a doubt, because he is holds the record in the two longest and most prestigious 9-Ball tournaments to date.
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Every pro, of the time, would ALWAYS say Sigel won the U.S. Open 5 times. There is a couple videos on youtube right now where they say it. Just because naming and organization in pools history is horrible does not take away from the accomplishments before a time of even accustats.

But if you want an accurate Wiki, ask Mike what he won and verify. That is easy to do...

Speaking of Mike Sigel, "5 Time U.S. Open 9 Ball Champ" Joe Kerr
 
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Taxi said:
In the early 70's Buddy matched up with Jimmy Rempe at Weenie Beanie's Jack 'n' Jill Cue Club in Arlington, VA. 10 games ahead freezeout for $25,000. This was when Rempe was winning one tournament after another, and Buddy was a relative unknown in tournament play.

It was a winner breaks format. Buddy broke and ran the first 6 racks, then came up dry. Rempe ran out, but then when he came up dry himself in the next game, that was the last time he got out of his chair. Counting the rack he ran after Rempe's dry break, Buddy finished off with a 4 pack.

The table time was 45 cents.
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45 cents then $30 now lol
 
raphcleary said:
True, but someone's got to do it. Other that Charles Ursitti no one even tried to keep a track of pool's history and document it, Snooker is light years ahead of pool when it come to this.
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Snooker appears to be light years ahead…but like pool, they had to work with what they had.
So many of those world titles were challenge matches or very short fields…and they had a bit of a closed shop.
In 1969, John Spencer had cracked that closed shop and won the world title on a tournament basis.
In 1977, John won the first world title at the Crucible and started the modern era.

I would like pool to be treated the same way…a world champion back in the day couldn’t be sanctioned by an organization that didn’t exist.
 
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flyvirginiaguy said:
Every pro, of the time, would ALWAYS say Sigel won the U.S. Open 5 times. There is a couple videos on youtube right now where they say it. Just because naming and organization in pools history is horrible does not take away from the accomplishments before a time of even accustats.

But if you want an accurate Wiki, ask Mike what he won and verify. That is easy to do...

Speaking of Mike Sigel, "5 Time U.S. Open 9 Ball Champ" Joe Kerr
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I know they call it a world championship, but when 75% of the contenders were at the previous event, and will be at the next event, I just don't feel it is truly differentiated from the other events. It may be a more prestigious tournament, but it's not like basketball where there is a season, and then the best teams play multiple games to win the championship. It's more like tennis, where there are major tournaments, but no specific world championship. I think if pool were to have what I consider a true world championship, they need to get the players that had the best season, have them play round robin, and then have the top four play single elimination, maybe multiple sets or longer races. I'm not trying to dismiss the accomplishment of the championships, but they just seem like a slightly more major major.

Speaking of mike Sigel, he said he was scared Earl would run out the set anytime he got to the table.
 
Shane has 5 USO titles against a freaking field of world champions.
Efren is the GOAT in one pocket and 15-ball rotation.
And in overall.
 
pt109 said:
Snooker appears to be light years ahead…but like pool, they had to work with what they had.
So many of those world titles were challenge matches or very short fields…and they had a bit of a closed shop.
In 1969, John Spencer had cracked that closed shop and won the world title on a tournament basis.
In 1977, John won the first world title at the Crucible and stated the modern era.

I would like pool to be treated the same way…a world champion back in the day couldn’t be sanctioned by an organization that didn’t exist.
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i think pre-1969 is a logical cut off for discussion of modern world snooker titles though. the challenge format was very excluding, a closed shop as you say. doesn't make the champions not champions, but it also doesn't compare well to modern world championships.

back to pool, it's earl for me. won the world title three times, twice overseas (and before a fairly hostile crowd for one of them) and he also won it back-to-back. together with his us open wins it's hard to argue against him being the most successful 9-ball player ever. the rivals to that claim have time on their side though
 
tomatoshooter said:
I know they call it a world championship, but when 75% of the contenders were at the previous event, and will be at the next event, I just don't feel it is truly differentiated from the other events. It may be a more prestigious tournament, but it's not like basketball where there is a season, and then the best teams play multiple games to win the championship. It's more like tennis, where there are major tournaments, but no specific world championship. I think if pool were to have what I consider a true world championship, they need to get the players that had the best season, have them play round robin, and then have the top four play single elimination, maybe multiple sets or longer races. I'm not trying to dismiss the accomplishment of the championships, but they just seem like a slightly more major major.

Speaking of mike Sigel, he said he was scared Earl would run out the set anytime he got to the table.
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Of course he would. Anyone would say that in a short match. But unlike Earl, Mike would not self destruct at times. I watched both many times in their primes. Sigel was definitely the one you consistently wanted your money on to win. With the nature of 9-Ball things go different ways. But, like the Color of Money match, things usally work out the way they should when you give it time... To think, like Efren, Sigel's best game was not even 9-Ball, it was just where the money was for them.
 
So many great players. I just enjoy them all. On any given day, anyone of the top guys could have been the best in the world on that day. Probably a few "underground" guys who made a ton of money to consider as well.
 
skogstokig said:
it's earl for me. won the world title three times
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Five times, according to his vest, unless a couple are unofficial. I'm pretty sure someone playing today will equal or better his totals. About the only way they don't is if they all keep taking turns as world champion until they age out, with Filler, FSR, and Gorst each winning 4. To me, that's what the GOAT is, most championships and major victories.
 
Yes, Earl in high gear for my money. But rating Efren far down the list? Struggling for 10th? Nobody ever said Earl didn't play his A-game in Singapore, but look what happened in a race to120. Watch the last day where Earl needed a handful of games and Efren came back from 17 down. Time after time, he's playing difficult shots off the rail with loads of spin, etc., a total tour de force. On that occasion at least, Efren was playing at Strickland's highest speed, and that's something most of the best could never do IMO.
 
VTEC John said:
Yes, Earl in high gear for my money. But rating Efren far down the list? Struggling for 10th? Nobody ever said Earl didn't play his A-game in Singapore, but look what happened in a race to120. Watch the last day where Earl needed a handful of games and Efren came back from 17 down. Time after time, he's playing difficult shots off the rail with loads of spin, etc., a total tour de force. On that occasion at least, Efren was playing at Strickland's highest speed, and that's something most of the best could never do IMO.
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Hong Kong, but great point.
Down 87-104 before making the gigantic comeback.
 
Cornerman said:
I’ll debate. When they polled the players for greatest of all the various disciplines in the early 90’s, Varner was voted as the top 9-baller.

Player of the Decade for the 80’s had to be Sigel

90’s was Archer

00’s was Mika

Earl had bursts, and was the greatest player of 1988. Not 1987 (Sigel) or 1989 (Varner). But his high gear was higher than any else’s. Efren is not in the discussion.
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Efren is often said to be the goat of All Around. There is a very good case for that. But Efren is also the best 8 ball player I ever saw. I think he might be the goat 8 ball player.
 
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