So What Does One Do When They Don't Have a Decent Local Mechanic...?

[The_JV]

...and finally the table is back in a playing state. As far as form and function go, I'd rate it as ~7 on the satisfaction scale.

• I could have done a better job clothing the rails. Although you can't see any of the mess I made. If you pop the pocket liners out there's clearly room for improvement in techinque.
• The staining on the rails is acceptable only because of my newb experience. The varying grain patterns cause by glue ups within the same rail would have prevented anything outstanding, but I'm sure someone with some talent could have done a better job.
• The fit/finish around the pocket liners isn't up to my own standards. Considering I free handed it with a palm router and the liners themselves aren't without flaw. I really shouldn't fixate on it. But it's still something that I can help but stare at.
• There's near zero wiggle room between squaring up the table and matching up the seams with the wood work I have done. This is really just whining, but I could easily spend a couple of hours trying to true up the rails and make all the bits and pieces flush.
• I still have to dream something up for absorbing the energy from a ball pocketed hard into the side pockets. As it currently stands. The small wooden pieces I made to jump the rail gap will shift back. I'm thinking at some point I'll have to place a piece of metal in there and make the wood purely comestic.
• As I was warned way back near the beginning. The Championship Tour cushions are slow. Reaaaal slow. Disappointing slow. So much so, I will make it a point to caution anyone I hear of doing rail work. When I pull the trigger to relocate the table. I will install SuperSpeeds.

I checked the height of the cushions and their point sits at ~1-3/8". There's more to it I know, but the rails were made with the K55 profile in mind, so I have to write off my slow action to the model type.

I'm going to put the rest of the cosmetic work on the back burner for now. I need to get some table time in, so it will have to wait.

More to come, just not within the next couple of weeks.

 

[rexus31]

No pics of the finished product?

 

[The_JV]

No pics of the finished product?

Really doesn't look all that different then the last full view pic I posted. Just have the bolts in the pocket liners. ...oh and the tools have been put away...lol. I'll post some pics of the almost finished product tomorrow.

Far from finished though. Still have to dream up something for the apron and eventually replace the legs with something not so cheap looking. The apron will be a winter project, so there will be more to come.

 

[The_JV]

• I could have done a better job clothing the rails. Although you can't see any of the mess I made. If you pop the pocket liners out there's clearly room for improvement in techinque.
• The staining on the rails is acceptable only because of my newb experience. The varying grain patterns cause by glue ups within the same rail would have prevented anything outstanding, but I'm sure someone with some talent could have done a better job.
• The fit/finish around the pocket liners isn't up to my own standards. Considering I free handed it with a palm router and the liners themselves aren't without flaw. I really shouldn't fixate on it. But it's still something that I can help but stare at.
• There's near zero wiggle room between squaring up the table and matching up the seams with the wood work I have done. This is really just whining, but I could easily spend a couple of hours trying to true up the rails and make all the bits and pieces flush.
• I still have to dream something up for absorbing the energy from a ball pocketed hard into the side pockets. As it currently stands. The small wooden pieces I made to jump the rail gap will shift back. I'm thinking at some point I'll have to place a piece of metal in there and make the wood purely comestic.
• As I was warned way back near the beginning. The Championship Tour cushions are slow. Reaaaal slow. Disappointing slow. So much so, I will make it a point to caution anyone I hear of doing rail work. When I pull the trigger to relocate the table. I will install SuperSpeeds.

One more thing I meant to add to this list before posting, and it's easily the biggest item of them all.

• Pocket opening... I was erring on the side of being under 4.5". After full assembly I'd hazard to say I'm closer to 4-5/8". My best guess as to the finished error, is cloth stretching. The sides ended up being exactly 5". The corners suffered from stretching the cloth over the point. For lack of better terminology, I'm going to say that I 'flared' the points open ~1/16" on each facing. I haven't put a straight edge on the facing to confirm this flare, but it's the best excuse I have at the moment.

So I don't know where my mistake on the above lays. Did I pull too tightly..? Should I have cut the miters with an extra 1/16" of meat so the flare would bring me back to the 4.5 goal...? Was this born of the A60 facing material I used, which is more plyable than the typical (and more stiff) facing you'll find at a supplier...? I simply can't say. All I know is that the corners all measure roughly 4-5/8" based on balls used as guages. ...and the point to point measurement based on calipers was <4.5"

When I do replace the cushions, which will probably be way sooner than actually needed. I will take this into consideration when I'm laying out the miter cuts.

The pockets as they currently are, are like vacuums imo. Between the new cloth and the friendlier 141 miter, (keep in mind the goal of a <4.5" opening). The >4.5" has things dropping I would have never expected. I knew I was going to get away with a bunch with the new cloth, but it's crazy what falls currently...lol

 

[The_JV]

No pics of the finished product?

As requested....

Not sure why the pic quality is so crappy... They were taken in the wee hours of the morning and I may have neglicted to wipe the lense prior.

Tried to whip this together for sake of progress... Not entriely sure it's the same pocket throughout...lol

 

[rexus31]

As requested....
View attachment 660630

View attachment 660631View attachment 660632View attachment 660634View attachment 660635
Not sure why the pic quality is so crappy... They were taken in the wee hours of the morning and I may have neglicted to wipe the lense prior.

Looks great! How's it play?

 

[The_JV]

Looks great! How's it play?

Thank you

All in all, pretty decent. I still haven't dialed it right in with the level. I have one spot that does need some attention, but it's only noticeable on the tail end of a slow roll, and I would need to adjust all the neighbouring points to work it out. "Free"-time is in very short order so it can wait for a short while.

The combination of brand spank'n new 860 and the dead-ish rails are causing me minor fits at the moment. Any level of draw/follow has some real goofy CB action. Just adjustments really, but when you're so used to playing on worn and busted cloth. The new stuff makes you feel like a top tier trick shot artist. The dead nature of the Tour Edition cushions is disheartening. I know what I should expect when I put a ball into a rail, and to see it slow down like it's pumping its breaks is annoying. Live and Learn.

Banking angles are wide and require a little pace on them to go true.

The corners are playing real big at the moment.

 

[The_JV]

One more thing I meant to add to this list before posting, and it's easily the biggest item of them all.

• Pocket opening... I was erring on the side of being under 4.5". After full assembly I'd hazard to say I'm closer to 4-5/8". My best guess as to the finished error, is cloth stretching. The sides ended up being exactly 5". The corners suffered from stretching the cloth over the point. For lack of better terminology, I'm going to say that I 'flared' the points open ~1/16" on each facing. I haven't put a straight edge on the facing to confirm this flare, but it's the best excuse I have at the moment.

So I don't know where my mistake on the above lays. Did I pull too tightly..? Should I have cut the miters with an extra 1/16" of meat so the flare would bring me back to the 4.5 goal...? Was this born of the A60 facing material I used, which is more plyable than the typical (and more stiff) facing you'll find at a supplier...? I simply can't say. All I know is that the corners all measure roughly 4-5/8" based on balls used as guages. ...and the point to point measurement based on calipers was <4.5"

When I do replace the cushions, which will probably be way sooner than actually needed. I will take this into consideration when I'm laying out the miter cuts.

The pockets as they currently are, are like vacuums imo. Between the new cloth and the friendlier 141 miter, (keep in mind the goal of a <4.5" opening). The >4.5" has things dropping I would have never expected. I knew I was going to get away with a bunch with the new cloth, but it's crazy what falls currently...lol

....and we're back. I've quoted the above because the content is the cause for the update.

Although I did enjoy the table as it was, and it was definitely more family friendly, I just couldn't deal with the dead-ish rails, how abnormally wide they banked, and the back hole nature of the pockets. Honestly the novelty wore off rather quickly for the wife and kids, so I'm responsible for about 99% of the play the table sees. In fact if I had to measure in time. "IF" the table saw play by anyone other than myself over the course of a month. It may be under 10-15mins. Bearing that in mind, I didn't have a problem with reworking it.

I wouldn't say the playing nature of the table was hurting my competitive game, as I'm not much of a bank potter per say, but it definitely wasn't helping it. The surface plays great and I'm extremely happy with the outcome. I could even live with the pocket dynamics. However the cushions are garbage and I strongly recommend that no one ever put this "Championship Tour Edition" rubber on their table.

So it may be needless to say at this point, but I pulled the trigger and had replacement cushions shipped to my door.

I've actually had them for a few weeks now, but with scrambling prior to my Vegas trip I simply didn't have the opportunity to start/finish the work in a timely fashion.

I did however begin the dis-assembly this morning. The journey of a 1000 staples has begun.

The hope is to reuse the rail cloth. I don't have replacement material and I'm trying to avoid the additional cost. Time will tell I suppose.

The plan is to not remove the cloth from the feather strips. I don't fore see a problem with this as long as I'm not messy with the rubber cement. If I keep the cloth held by the stripping, then it should just be a matter of wrapping them back close to what it was to begin with. The only wrinkle will be the additional 1/8" of length I plan on adding to either end in an effort to tighten up the pockets. Based on how the first kick at the can turned out. I figure I end should end up with corner pockets with roughly a 4-3/8" opening.

Stay tuned....

 

[The_JV]

Well I meant to do an update this morning but just realized that I hadn't taking any progress pics...lol

The rail extension, extensions are complete. I ended up ripping down some of that 'zero void' plywood I had kicking around. Wasn't overly difficult to set up the saw to produce the 1/8" extensions. That said, I'm currently bashing my head against a wall trying to remove the old rubber cement from the rails. This wasn't such a task the first time around. I'm assuming due to considerably older (harder) residue that remained after removing the original rails. Figure they were on the table at least 15yrs...

I don't want to knock down the rails at all so I've resorted to back dragging a blade to ball up the rubber cement. It takes a bit, but leaves only a very light sanding to get things back to smooth and clean. The slow going has stretched out the rework time. Was hoping to glue the new cushions on last night. As it stands, I have 3 more rails to clean up before I can start that phase.

Maybe if I risk the wrath of the better half. I may have it all back together by the end of the weekend. I need this done as the whole point was to put some decent practice in before a couple of tournaments that are coming up.

 

[tomatoshooter]

Well I meant to do an update this morning but just realized that I hadn't taking any progress pics...lol

The rail extension, extensions are complete. I ended up ripping down some of that 'zero void' plywood I had kicking around. Wasn't overly difficult to set up the saw to produce the 1/8" extensions. That said, I'm currently bashing my head against a wall trying to remove the old rubber cement from the rails. This wasn't such a task the first time around. I'm assuming due to considerably older (harder) residue that remained after removing the original rails. Figure they were on the table at least 15yrs...

I don't want to knock down the rails at all so I've resorted to back dragging a blade to ball up the rubber cement. It takes a bit, but leaves only a very light sanding to get things back to smooth and clean. The slow going has stretched out the rework time. Was hoping to glue the new cushions on last night. As it stands, I have 3 more rails to clean up before I can start that phase.

Maybe if I risk the wrath of the better half. I may have it all back together by the end of the weekend. I need this done as the whole point was to put some decent practice in before a couple of tournaments that are coming up.

Are you not using solvents on the rubber cement? I don't know if there is a reason not to.

 

[The_JV]

Are you not using solvents on the rubber cement? I don't know if there is a reason not to.

Nope... no chemicals. I never considered it, but I could dream up a couple of potential reasons not to. Not saying they're good reasons, just thoughts.

1. Rail cloth: I'm leaving the cloth attached to the rail so I'm being very careful not damage/stain it in any fashion. Again, I never considered using a solvent but would rather burn some more calories then risk discolouring the rail cloth with a mishap.
2. I've never used a solvent before. Is there risk of it absorbing into the wood and making a re-application of rubber cement difficult...?

On the topic of removing the old rubber cement. I ended up using a wire wheel. Sounds awfully aggressive I know, but at very low speeds in a drill and gravity only pressure. It did a great job of peeling the cement away from the wood and caused only very minimal scratching.

Considered using a brass hand brush as well. Went with the wheel because the bristles are very rigid and densely packed. Figured it would have a better chance at removing the cement (rigid) while without digging into the wood (dense pattern).

Here's a rail that was in progress with the wire wheel. It took the 'stripping' of rail down to about 15mins from probably closer to an hour. If I wasn't playing careful with pressure. I probably could have cut that down to moments. Of course I would have lost notable wood though.

After a extremely light sanding to remove balled up cement and the little patches I wasn't going to chase...

Success.... Finally able to move on to adhering the new rubber. The stuff stinks so I'll hear it from the wife and kids for a couple of hours, but their sacrifice will be appreciated.

...and lastly I took a pic of the 'extension, extensions':

If it looks a little off compared to the original sub-rail extension, there's a reason for it. The original extension was just a block of wood added and then finally trimmed to the desired compound miter angle. The secondary extension is in essence a 1/8th shim. It's thickness if uniform and will not be subjected to any future trimming to generate a miter.

The 3 staples were used (in this case) to hold the extension tight to the sub-rail to aid in strong glue up. Nothing special, just yellow carpenter's glue. Thought about pulling them now, but I don't see any reason to so why create work right...?...lol

 

[tomatoshooter]

Nope... no chemicals. I never considered it, but I could dream up a couple of potential reasons not to. Not saying they're good reasons, just thoughts.

1. Rail cloth: I'm leaving the cloth attached to the rail so I'm being very careful not damage/stain it in any fashion. Again, I never considered using a solvent but would rather burn some more calories then risk discolouring the rail cloth with a mishap.
2. I've never used a solvent before. Is there risk of it absorbing into the wood and making a re-application of rubber cement difficult...?

On the topic of removing the old rubber cement. I ended up using a wire wheel. Sounds awfully aggressive I know, but at very low speeds in a drill and gravity only pressure. It did a great job of peeling the cement away from the wood and caused only very minimal scratching.
View attachment 715117
Considered using a brass hand brush as well. Went with the wheel because the bristles are very rigid and densely packed. Figured it would have a better chance at removing the cement (rigid) while without digging into the wood (dense pattern).

Here's a rail that was in progress with the wire wheel. It took the 'stripping' of rail down to about 15mins from probably closer to an hour. If I wasn't playing careful with pressure. I probably could have cut that down to moments. Of course I would have lost notable wood though.
View attachment 715122
After a extremely light sanding to remove balled up cement and the little patches I wasn't going to chase...
View attachment 715119
Success.... Finally able to move on to adhering the new rubber. The stuff stinks so I'll hear it from the wife and kids for a couple of hours, but their sacrifice will be appreciated.

...and lastly I took a pic of the 'extension, extensions':
View attachment 715123
If it looks a little off compared to the original sub-rail extension, there's a reason for it. The original extension was just a block of wood added and then finally trimmed to the desired compound miter angle. The secondary extension is in essence a 1/8th shim. It's thickness if uniform and will not be subjected to any future trimming to generate a miter.

The 3 staples were used (in this case) to hold the extension tight to the sub-rail to aid in strong glue up. Nothing special, just yellow carpenter's glue. Thought about pulling them now, but I don't see any reason to so why create work right...?...lol

I didn't think about damaging the cloth when I suggested chemical stripper. The rails appear built up from separate pieces so there may be a risk of loosening the glue there, too.

 

[The_JV]

I didn't think about damaging the cloth when I suggested chemical stripper. The rails appear built up from separate pieces so there may be a risk of loosening the glue there, too.

Well to be fair. I think the odds of me being so haphazard with chemical stripper that it spills over the to the cloth is unlikely. ...but still a possibility I suppose.

Only one of the rails is made up of more than a single piece of wood. ...and that seam is about midway through it's width. No shot that a solvent would risk breaking that bond.

What may appear to be separate pieces is just a milled recess in the face of the sub-rail that still has the old rubber cement on it's surface. Not entirely sure why the table manufacturer opted to mill this recess as the rubber profile also has a recess along the same location.

Originally it was no more than maybe a 1/16" in depth. I've certainly knocked it down some while reconditioning the sub-rail surface. Again though, and considering the rubber profile. I see no reason for it.

I hope to get the Superspeed rubber 'cemented' on this afternoon. Maybe even trimmed and the facings installed.

 

[The_JV]

As is the norm when I'm attempting to complete a project at home wherein I'm the only benefactor. The rail progression endured a few delays while I was voluntold to address other things. However, as of last night, they are all re-clothed and ready to be bolted back on the table.

For the most part, all the work is merely a repeat of what's already been documented in this thread so I won't bother running down the task list. Only real difference was that I had to trim the rubber without the mitersaw. Last time I cut the subrails and rubber all in one pass. Doing so made for a flawless transition and guaranteed the miter angle was dead nuts accurate.

If you dig through online videos. You'll find individuals doing cushion replacements just marking a line with a ruler and using the subrail as a guide. While I guess that's all well and good. I opted to ensure my lines maintained the 141degree miter from front to back.

Cutting the rubber was also far more work this time around. I opted to get it close with a razor blade then crept up with an angle grinder / sanding disk. It's honestly a pretty barbaric way to go about it. The only saving grace was I knew it only needed to be clean enough to maintain my miter, as the facing material would provide me a clean finished surface.

...and of course the additional extension material beyond the facing needed to be cleared out so the pocket liners would fit as they did before.

Wrapping the pocket facings was hit or miss. The extra length of the rail made it tough, and I was forced to compromise on quality. Didn't really have a choice honestly, considering the use of cloth that was trimmed already.

In all honesty, the quality of work isn't what it was the first time around. It goes without saying that I'm posting the pics of the "better work"...lol. Reusing the cloth was one thing, but to stretch out the length of the rails by 1/4" while doing do made it a minor dog's breakfast. In the end the table will play perfectly fine, but I won't win any RKC awards for quality of work under the skirt.

I dropped the rails in place but haven't locked anything down as of yet. Shoved the corner caps into place to get a sense of it and snapped a pic.

Guessing I'm going to end up right around 4.25". Which I'm completely fine with. You may notice the very light ghosting from the previous folds of the miter. That's actually green in colour, and perfectly matches the Taom V10 I've been exclusively using on this table.

 

[The_JV]

So right after work, I went downstairs an bolted everything together.

Like I thought it would. The corners are 4.25 and the sides 4.75. . The pocket liners required some trimming to fit inside the now longer rails

I even got to hit a dozen racks or so. Missed more close calls then I have in the last month, . Between the 0.25" reduction in size and the far more lively SuperSpeed rubber, the table plays great. The speed off the rails isn't nuts like a typical Diamond/Artemis set up, but far more akin to how a table should play.

Props to pros playing on 4" pockets. 4.25 from the far end of the table looks small enough.

Hopefully I get to doing something to finish off the table's skirt this winter

 

[fastone371]

So right after work, I went downstairs an bolted everything together.
View attachment 716188
Like I thought it would. The corners are 4.25 and the sides 4.75. . The pocket liners required some trimming to fit inside the now longer rails

I even got to hit a dozen racks or so. Missed more close calls then I have in the last month, . Between the 0.25" reduction in size and the far more lively SuperSpeed rubber, the table plays great. The speed off the rails isn't nuts like a typical Diamond/Artemis set up, but far more akin to how a table should play.

Props to pros playing on 4" pockets. 4.25 from the far end of the table looks small enough.

Hopefully I get to doing something to finish off the table's skirt this winter

Looks great, nice job!!
Did you reduce the pockets to 4 1/4" or were they even larger??
Mine are the size in the picture and it doesn't seem to be real tight, at least not compared to a pro cut Diamond.

 

[The_JV]

Looks great, nice job!!
Did you reduce the pockets to 4 1/4" or were they even larger??

Thanks... It would have turned out better if it were the first kick at the can with fresh rail cloth. As it is, in a few spots you can notice the ragged edge of the cloth in the pockets. Doesn't effect play at all.

Originally (back at the beginning of this thread) the pockets were >5.125" and had a wide facing angle ~145 I think. My first reduction took them down to 4.5". I was aiming for reasonable family play. However between the dead playing 'new' rails and new cloth. Literally anything tracking toward the corners along the rail fell in. The redux of the subrail extension, got me down to the 4.25. That combined with the considerably more lively SuperSpeed cushions, make the table play awesome.

Things will still work themselves in, but it's nowhere near as generous as it was.

Mine are the size in the picture and it doesn't seem to be real tight, at least not compared to a pro cut Diamond.
View attachment 716279

I do have a pic with a comparable ball orientation, but not handy. I'd say our pockets are extremely similar in size.

I just got off some diamonds with a pro cut over the weekend. They were closer to 4.5 but the cloth was heavily worn and somewhat sticky. Nothing fell in them that even glanced the point. Played terrible imo.

 

[dendweller]

I just got off some diamonds with a pro cut over the weekend. They were closer to 4.5 but the cloth was heavily worn and somewhat sticky. Nothing fell in them that even glanced the point. Played terrible imo.

Saw a video of Greg from Diamond talking about getting input from tour players on how deep the shelves should be etc.

Maybe that design becomes overly difficult in a pool hall situation where cloth is not in the condition cloth tends to be for tour events.

 

[The_JV]

Saw a video of Greg from Diamond talking about getting input from tour players on how deep the shelves should be etc.

Maybe that design becomes overly difficult in a pool hall situation where cloth is not in the condition cloth tends to be for tour events.

I don't have an issue how Diamonds play generally speaking. The cushions are flubber and usually roll fast (cloth), but that's just adjustment. However once you let their condition go to the dumpster, you can't play the game right imo. I have zero doubt that's from a combination of the deep shelves and worn/dirty cloth.

If your market is to be a supplier to tours or the professional player then they've gone to the right source for intel. Those customers won't let their equipment get to state where it becomes unusable. However if a pool room is going to neglect their tables. You can expect Diamonds to play horribly within a year

 

[dendweller]

I don't have an issue how Diamonds play generally speaking.

Me neither, wish there was a room in my area that had them, just wonder if that design is the best one for a place where the cloth gets a lot of play and doesn't get changed for a year or more.