What is meant by "Pop" the cue ball?

Cornerman said:
I disagree on trying to avoid the hop. The hop is a result of a good hit. It has to be, or else something went wrong. Like anyone else, I’ve hit the balls square without the pop and with the pop. With the hop has always resulted in a good break, It’s just basic physics that if you hit the cueball with elevation (and there always is elevation) then it will hop.

I could theorize all I want on this, like if the cue hits too flat then it tends to only have a linear or planar transfer of energy, which might suffice in 9-ball. But maybe some z-axis force is needed to get the center balls out of the triangle rack. But whatever the case, for me if I just execute the break stroke well and the cue ball hops back, the rack likes to explode. If I catch it flat and the cueball doesnt hop, there is a noticeable difference on how the rack doesnt come apart.

We’d be better of examining why a hopped break results in better spreads rather than trying to avoid it for theoretical reasons.
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Great explanation. My best break comes by using a regular bridge on the the back rail. This gives a little cue elevation and therefore a little hop with a full face hit on the head ball. If the cue ball bounces off the side of the table I know it was not a full face hit.
I did not think any of the experts would agree with this. Thanks.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
I think "many of us" have "confirmed" the opposite - that's why we need data.

We know the CB hops more with more power; maybe that's why your hopping break spreads better than your non-hopping break. But does it spread better than everybody's non-hopping break? I think we can get a non-hopping break with the same power if we do it right - and more of that power will be delivered to the rack.

pj
chgo
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Pretty much every break hops, at least a little bit. With the butt of the cue positioned over the rail, the cue's approach angle is slightly downward into the cue ball which causes the hop, especially when hit hard. You can maximize the explosiveness of the break by controlling the timing of the hop so that the cue ball is falling downward into the head ball at impact. SVB does this really well in 10-ball.
 
Tennesseejoe said:
Great explanation. My best break comes by using a regular bridge on the the back rail. This gives a little cue elevation and therefore a little hop with a full face hit on the head ball. If the cue ball bounces off the side of the table I know it was not a full face hit.
I did not think any of the experts would agree with this. Thanks.
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Corey Deuel did a lot of experimentation of the height of the bridge so much so that he used an actual bridge to break in 8-ball. Bridging off the rail does the same thing: it elevates the entire bridge hand so that you can hit "as level as possible," but the back of the still still is higher. That actually increases the hop because the result is a stronger hit for the same stick speed. Lots of league players discover this on their own just by experimentation on a small table.

Orcullo often accomplishes the same thing by raising his bridge hand palm off the bed and bracing with his elbow to keep the bridge hand high. Shane already has a big hand, and also drops the elbow to keep as flat as possible during the break stroke. But because the butt of the cue is still slightly higher, his strong break results in a hop.
 
Cornerman said:
You'd have to do something that isn't natural to "do it right" and get the power you're thinking. The cue stick must clear the rail, and therefore must be angled. A solid hit with power must hop if solid with power are achieved. Any break that doesn't hop clearly has less power and/or less solid hit. Please someone show me a big break hit solidly that didn't hop and spreads better or even as well.
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Change the distance from CB to rack until the CB's hops are just the right length so the CB hits the head ball squarely, without hopping higher off the head ball than it did off the table surface. This has been discussed here more than once.

FeelDaShot said the same thing above (you liked it).

Maybe we're talking about the same thing - minimizing the hop, not eliminating it.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
That's not something to try for - it wastes power. If the CB hits the head ball more square, the force caroming the CB up can instead be moving OBs.

pj
chgo
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Maybe, maybe not. It hops because it is in the air, so it wasn't wasting energy due to sliding on the cloth.

The amount of energy it takes to throw a ball a foot into the air is also negligible.

Also, the point and angle of impact is very important... Along with speed. Some break positions won't allow one to hit hard enough without a hop.

Finally, if it's so bad, or avoidable, why are the best players in the world doing it.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Change the distance from CB to rack until the CB's hops are just the right length so the CB hits the head ball squarely, without hopping higher off the head ball than it did off the table surface. This has been discussed here more than once.

FeelDaShot said the same thing above (you liked it).

pj
chgo
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Show me anyone that can do this and see what the result is. I’ve hit the rack many times where the result was a dead cue ball. The rack every time didn’t break as well. It’s been discussed many times before, and it was always wrong then , too. Better to just hit the balls firm and solid.
 
Cornerman said:
Better to just hit the balls firm and solid.
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Firm and solid is exactly what I'm talking about. The less the CB hops off the head ball, the more "solid" the hit was. That means the path of the CB's 3D center at impact points straight through the head ball's 3D center, so the CB bounces straight back on the same (slightly elevated) line.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Firm and solid is exactly what I'm talking about. The less the CB hops off the head ball, the more "solid" the hit was. That means the path of the CB's 3D center at impact points straight through the head ball's 3D center, so the CB bounces straight back on the same (slightly elevated) line.

pj
chgo
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I disagreed with you because you explicitly said to “avoid the hop.” This would be a colossal waste of effort. Plus every observation is that a non-hopping cueball never results in a better break, and more often visibly shows a worse break. I have done commentary on matches where the dead cue ball break resulted in a clearly worse break. But even if the latter weren’t true, it’s 100000x easier to show an amazing break that had a hop versus trying to find that mystical great break that didn’t hop.

Avoiding the hop is a foolish endeavor. Hitting it firm and solid results in a hop. The hop often is an indicator of just how well you hit it. Maybe the curve for hop vs speed goes from zero hop through normal hop to too much hop for that given speed. With an angled cue off the rail, there might be some sweet spot, but observation says it’s not zero.
 
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Cornerman said:
Show me anyone that can do this and see what the result is. I’ve hit the rack many times where the result was a dead cue ball. The rack every time didn’t break as well. It’s been discussed many times before, and it was always wrong then , too. Better to just hit the balls firm and solid.
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YES! I agree 100% every post you make this thread!
NO cueball hop is just weak break. If you hit them hard you will get cueball hop.
I tried years to do what PJ suggest but it is too hard to do consistent results.
I saw interview from SVB and he was asked about break. He said he just hit hard and try hop cueball to middle.
Then he was asked how to do it. He just said " Just hit them, try hop cueball on middle of table"
That what i started doing and I noticed when i get consistent hop my timing is good. It is easier to replicate than trying to keep cueball low. Which is weaker break.
 
BigBoof said:
Making the cue ball jump after hitting the rack on the break.
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This is the post I initially responded to - BigBoof advocated trying to make the CB hop, which is what I disagree with. I agree it hops a little on pretty much any hard break, as I said before - I just don't think it's something to try to do or increase.

So to be clear, I think the best break is the one where the CB hops off the head ball no higher than it hopped on the way there, conserving maximum impact energy.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Change the distance from CB to rack until the CB's hops are just the right length so the CB hits the head ball squarely, without hopping higher off the head ball than it did off the table surface. This has been discussed here more than once.

FeelDaShot said the same thing above (you liked it).

Maybe we're talking about the same thing - minimizing the hop, not eliminating it.

pj
chgo
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You can also change the distance from the bridge hand to the cue ball. A shorter bridge distance can give more hop. "HOP" this helps you... LOL
 
Poolmanis said:
YES! I agree 100% every post you make this thread!
NO cueball hop is just weak break. If you hit them hard you will get cueball hop.
I tried years to do what PJ suggest but it is too hard to do consistent results.
I saw interview from SVB and he was asked about break. He said he just hit hard and try hop cueball to middle.
Then he was asked how to do it. He just said " Just hit them, try hop cueball on middle of table"
That what i started doing and I noticed when i get consistent hop my timing is good. It is easier to replicate than trying to keep cueball low. Which is weaker break.
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Of these ten great breaks, the two best definitely had a lot of height on the resulting hop. Obviously because he hit it harder with solid rack contact. His first break was flatter, but good ball movement, but not the best. (Edit: that first break wasn’t flat at all) Later he has another relatively flatter break with noticeably less movement. I can’t imagine trying to tweak this break to somehow get better rack movement. Seems like that would be wasted effort.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
This is the post I initially responded to - BigBoof advocated trying to make the CB hop, which is what I disagree with. I agree it hops a little on pretty much any hard break, as I said before - I just don't think it's something to try to do or increase.

So to be clear, I think the best break is the one where the CB hops off the head ball no higher than it hopped on the way there, conserving maximum impact energy.

pj
chgo
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Cornerman said:
Honestly, I only read you as the only person suggesting to avoid hopping, and I can't understand where you're getting your opinion aside from "it seems theoretically correct." I've seen you break. It's just like anyone else.
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And I'm sure the rest of the game was absolutely awe inspiring with rare misses and position play. "It seems theoretically correct"
or "goes against science" is the 'go to' response to everything. How can one even consider going against it?
 
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