The Impossible One Railer

DeadStick said:
I'm not even sure how a double kiss would work on this shot, especially at the speeds we shot it at. Hitting the OB right of center at that speed, the CB is going to drive the OB into the rail and be long gone after the first strike.
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I'd say because of that OB rail compression, the double kiss angle to pot the OB would just be a slightly thicker angle than at softer speeds. Apart from that it's the same idea.

Although, with the OB frozen to the rail, the shallower the incoming angle of the CB, the harder it is to get the OB to come back towards the side where the CB came from. In this specific shot, I'd definitely think the double kiss is still very much possible, but as an example of this idea of a limit, think about the following situation:

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In this layout, which of the CB's would be within the limits of being able to double kiss the 1 ball to end up going within the range shown in red arrows? The highest CB definitely could, and the lowest CB definitely couldn't. But it's hard to judge intuivitely just by looking at the photo where the cut-off point would be, and where the cut-off angle for each individual CB position would be in the first place. Maybe there's some theory for this that I'm not aware of, like a simple rule of thumb for the limits of double kiss angles. Haven't ever really messed around with double kisses apart from very simple practical safety stuff.
 
Oikawa said:
With the angle shown in the diagram in the original post, it is definitely doable on most tables since it's like a 75-80 degree cut required, just requires a huge amount of power and some right spin.
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I wouldn’t even think to try that shot. But pretty sure its left not right to make it grab and squirt off rail. There is a certain point on banks where you have to switch back from outside to inside for making maximum angle shots off the rail. you won’t get enough energy transfer going outside. I think I explained that correctly. Inside accelerates the object ball outside decelerates it in a sense
 
Oikawa said:
I'd say because of that OB rail compression, the double kiss angle to pot the OB would just be a slightly thicker angle than at softer speeds. Apart from that it's the same idea.

Although, with the OB frozen to the rail, the shallower the incoming angle of the CB, the harder it is to get the OB to come back towards the side where the CB came from. In this specific shot, I'd definitely think the double kiss is still very much possible, but as an example of this idea of a limit, think about the following situation:

View attachment 736203

In this layout, which of the CB's would be within the limits of being able to double kiss the 1 ball to end up going within the range shown in red arrows? The highest CB definitely could, and the lowest CB definitely couldn't. But it's hard to judge intuivitely just by looking at the photo where the cut-off point would be, and where the cut-off angle for each individual CB position would be in the first place. Maybe there's some theory for this that I'm not aware of, like a simple rule of thumb for the limits of double kiss angles. Haven't ever really messed around with double kisses apart from very simple practical safety stuff.
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Any speed at all on the CB hitting the OB half-ball or further right of center is going to send it away from the OB on the tangent line immediately, no chance of a double hit.

I'd like to see someone try a double kiss on the same setup and even get the OB going in the right direction and get halfway across the table. Getting that OB to cross all the way back towards where the CB came from requires hitting it into the rail with significant speed.

A double kiss would require a fuller hit at slower speeds, where the CB can follow into the OB. I just don't think the OB will have any enough momentum on it, and/or will get immediately blocked by the CB on the second kiss.
 
Willowbrook Wolfy said:
I wouldn’t even think to try that shot. But pretty sure its left not right to make it grab and squirt off rail. There is a certain point on banks where you have to switch back from outside to inside for making maximum angle shots off the rail. you won’t get enough energy transfer going outside. I think I explained that correctly. Inside accelerates the object ball outside decelerates it in a sense
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Right spin worked better for me. Right helps eliminate the cut-induced right spin on the OB which makes it bank too short.
 
I'm a banger, (APA 6) and this was my first attempt at this shot cold. My rails are pretty warn out. I think I could make this with more lively rails.

I used low right spin. You can jump to about 50 seconds to see the shot. The rest was left in to see me turning on the table. I went to get my jacket to grill some things out back and thought I would try the shot. .
 
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DeadStick said:
Right spin worked better for me. Right helps eliminate the cut-induced left spin on the OB which makes it bank too short.
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Well that does makes sense if them are the facts from you taking the shot.

Like I said I wouldn’t even think to try that one. And inside usually works better for me on higher angle backcut banks. Maybe it’s just me though. They seem to come off the rail at a larger angle with inside for me. And it’s my go to when say a ball is a diamond past the side and I’m banking cross side at a bad angle Even though that doesn’t make sense. Because outside does normally send ball farther. BHE doesn’t make sense to a lot of people either, but it works. Guess I have some experimenting to do before league on Sunday now.
 
Willowbrook Wolfy said:
Inside accelerates the object ball outside decelerates it
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I think it's the opposite because of transferred spin and throw (although very little at such a thin cut).

Maybe you're decreasing the cut angle with swerve?

DeadStick said:
Right spin worked better for me. Right helps eliminate the cut-induced right spin on the OB which makes it bank too short.
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What he said.

Cut-induced right spin also slows the OB down.

pj
chgo
 
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Willowbrook Wolfy said:
Well that does makes sense if them are the facts from you taking the shot.

Like I said I wouldn’t even think to try that one. And inside usually works better for me on higher angle backcut banks. Maybe it’s just me though. They seem to come off the rail at a larger angle with inside for me. And it’s my go to when say a ball is a diamond past the side and I’m banking cross side at a bad angle Even though that doesn’t make sense. Because outside does normally send ball farther. BHE doesn’t make sense to a lot of people either, but it works. Guess I have some experimenting to do before league on Sunday now.
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I use inside on frozen OB bank shots that are relatively thick contact, and so at risk of a double kiss, because inside lets me over-cut the OB while still shortening its bank angle and thereby get the CB out of the way. For example, a frozen rail cross-corner bank where the OB is on the first diamond, and the CB is in the jaws opposite, would be inside for me.

But with this shot, we're trying to make the OB bank longer, so the outside helps.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
I think it's the opposite because of transferred spin and throw (very little at such a thin cut, but still opposite).

Maybe you're decreasing the cut angle with swerve?


What he said.

Cut-induced right spin also slows the OB down.

pj
chgo
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No I said correctly hit a cut combo with inside and then with outside. The ball you combo with will go farther after contact with inside than with outside because inside puts topspin on the ball. Topspin increases bank angle of cb draw decreases bank angle so same should apply to any ball hitting the rail
Left and right don’t just apply left and right to OB the apply top and bottom spin also unless the shot is straight in.
 
iusedtoberich said:
Well I'm happy as a pig in shit. And, I take back giving any pro alive 25 attempts at the shot in the first post. The other two donuts were when I was first doing it to the 2nd diamond, then 2.5 diamond.

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Sorry, you scratched.

Just kidding - nice shot! Now you've got me trying to figure out if the geometry (cut angle) of the shot is the same on an 8 ft table as on a 9... I think it is, someone correct me if it isn't.
 
Willowbrook Wolfy said:
No I said correctly hit a cut combo with inside and then with outside. The ball you combo with will go farther after contact with inside than with outside because inside puts topspin on the ball. Topspin increases bank angle of cb draw decreases bank angle so same should apply to any ball hitting the rail
Left and right don’t just apply left and right to OB the apply top and bottom spin also unless the shot is straight in.
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Explain how hitting the CB with inside puts topspin on the OB, please.
 
But of course you are going to have a real hard time drawing an OB on combo with outside. Hit it hard enough you can get it to about center ball though
 
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