Do you think these pockets were too large?
- Thread starter skip100
- Start date
I doubt it.
tomatoshooter
Well-known member
I love the chemistry with Tom Kelly, Buddy Hall, and Nick Varner. I love watching those old matches.
Ghost of OBC
Well-known member
I understand why the pros hate setups like this, but less tight tables would bring a greater number of players into contention, even just on a runner. It would be better for the game.
The cream rises to the top no matter the pocket size.
Flakeandrun
Well-known member
Would be better for the game in your opinion, the opinion of a struggling US or of everyone in the world?
Personally, I don't think big pockets dd anything viable from a skill or financial/viewership aspect, but am always curious why people want bucket pockets.
So, would it simply be a case of it would be better for weaker players of the game, and thus encouraging a greater amount of people who consider themselves 'dedicated players'? (or would it be considered too easy to waste time on from cue sports enthusiasts?)
Would it really be better for TV audiences with some 'wonder shots' being more easily sunk, or would it be seen as a no-skilled hacks game... banging a ball around and knowing it's going in somewhere, or that any old banger could do the same?
As someone who grew up playing snooker, the tighter pockets make me feel better about playing (regardless of whether my dad still tells me it's a talentless game lol)
Not trying to ruffle your feathers specifically, but am interested in general discussion around this topic. As Americans often rabbit on and on about small pockets 'killing' the game, and I personally don't see it.
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Ghost of OBC
Well-known member
I also grew up playing snooker. My suggestion is mostly for the US. At best pool is a participant/fan sport here. It's never going to compete with the NFL or other televised sports. It could succeed the way pickleball has, with big participation events that support pro events. DCC is almost the model. APA gets more people to Vegas to play pool each year than ESPN could get to watch pool on TV. Pro poker in the US does a similar trick. Get prospective fans to become players and then dedicated fans. If occasionally a punter got from the league night to the final table, there'd be a lot more engagement than yet another Fedor/Shane match.
"Where'd all the characters go?" They say.
Well, if you tighten the game up so you need better than 20/20 vision and the steadiness of a competition pistol shooter a lot of the characters aren't going to make the final 16.
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Ghost of OBC
Well-known member
Cool. So let's speed up events and make more interesting shot making by enbiggening the pockets.
Don’t threaten me with a good time
tomatoshooter
Well-known member
Yes.
Realistically, you have to have more skill than the other player, regardless of pocket size. And maybe for every unknown that goes on a heater, there's someone else that sits in their chair watching Filler run out a set. I do honestly believe that the highlight reel shots can generate some interest in the game. How many shots from the top tournaments do you think are highlight material? Not to us, who know how difficult it is, but to someone watching sportscenter. I think the circus shots make the game exciting and are important.
The problem is that the pros have gotten so good that the pockets had to be tightened up, reducing the spectacular shots, and hoping the consequences for a missed one.
These aren't any tighter than Jayson Shaw's straight pool table
Or AMF Playmaster
WobblyStroke
Well-known member
Put me down in the bigger pockets camp. I think 4.5" (2balls) is great. 4 and 3/8 is nice too. 4 and 1/4 already venture into 'better not try this on these pockets' land. And 4" give you a taste of some of the torture you will experience playing on a Chinese 8Ball table.
It's not like the NBA is changing hoop size from 2 balls wide (seriously it is 2 balls in diameter) just because it's raining 3s now. Ball goes in; fan excitement. Ball rattles; collective aaaahhh. Same for pool.
Pool is supposed to be a runout game. You are supposed to clear the table and keep your opponent in his seat. More banks. More kick ins. More combos and caroms. Just a better game (plus no jump cues). But if ppl love their jumps, more of those will fall too. If the cream is going to rise to the top anyway, it might as well do it in a fun and exciting manner on 4 1/2" pockets.
It's not like the NBA is changing hoop size from 2 balls wide (seriously it is 2 balls in diameter) just because it's raining 3s now. Ball goes in; fan excitement. Ball rattles; collective aaaahhh. Same for pool.
Pool is supposed to be a runout game. You are supposed to clear the table and keep your opponent in his seat. More banks. More kick ins. More combos and caroms. Just a better game (plus no jump cues). But if ppl love their jumps, more of those will fall too. If the cream is going to rise to the top anyway, it might as well do it in a fun and exciting manner on 4 1/2" pockets.
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Ghost of OBC
Well-known member
The MLB has gone completely in this direction. They don't think anyone is watching whole baseball games, but they are maximizing SoMe content, gambling, highlights, fan interaction etc.
Flakeandrun
Well-known member
Depending on where I am playing, most halls here have 4.25" standard. 4.5" is mostly found in the bar. There is only one Hall I have been to that had 4 x 4.5" tables (sat lonely amongst three rooms worth of Chinese-8 tables).
The hall I go to the most often has 16 x 4.25" and then also has 4 x 4.125" and one Diamond 4" - the other branch of this company I go to sometimes has 16 x 4.25" 4 x Chinese-8 and one Diamond 4" - I haven't been to their 3rd store.
I think 4.25" is pretty much the standard here (and can be seen across at least three chains that operate in the city, and some smaller halls), and 4.5" gets treated with a bit of a disdain... People here do have a very different idea of what 'good' looks like, or what 'hard' is. They also are much, much quicker to adopt the most popular, or newest things (MR break box, grey cloth, black balls etc etc)
Pickleball makes me want to vomit. How on earth that ever became popular is anyone's gue....oh wait, it's not a guess. It's middle-class morons lapping up expensive tat
- I guess in the past, pool is to snooker, what pickleball is to tennis...Although, I wouldn't put it in the same category now.Thanks for adding your perspective, definitely see what you are saying in some areas. It's a really complicated balance between; what is watchable? to who is it watchable? is it playable? to who is it playable? is smaller making progress? to who is it progress?
Where did you grow up? I wish I grew up somewhere with access to 9ft pool tables and snooker, I feel I probably would have gravitated towards it much earlier.
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I've yet to hear snooker guys complaining the pockets are too tight. IMO they're cut completely wrong but that's me. Speaking of alternate realities... I practice an ancient dark art called competence. (humor me) In grade school band you have a bunch of kids most of whom have never played their instrument. They learn quick enough that all the rhythmic and intonation elements have to be dead on or you aint even started on the music.
In pool you have a lone guy banging at stuff until they all start going in. Shoot the ball, it stays the same size no matter how hard you bang it. He learns that's good enough to start collecting people's money. Right there the world changes away from the evolution of pool to um, taking people's money. What evolves are the ins and outs of "winning" and "losing". The more people in the pond the more you can take.
Back to the quantum effects on a pool ball; there aren't many to lose any sleep over. The ball does indeed stay the same size as does the pocket. A given strike on a pool shot will produce memorable and repeatable results; always.
So what's the problem? 'Fyask me, incompetence. It doesn't take perfection to take the money. That has long since evolved into "You can't play perfect." and naturally that's enough wisdom to not even bother trying.
Be all that as it may, all it takes would be some training to hit tiny pockets.
First rule: You're not trying to hit the pocket. A properly struck ball will keep going till it rolls through the pocket. It's the path of the ball that needs addressing. The noob musician is not trying to play that A natural at exactly 440 herz. They do learn quick enough to keep it steady though because that's part of the drill.
Seems to me by the time people are competing at pool, they should have their pool geometry down cold. If the pros themselves were hitting tight lines as a matter of fact, tight pockets would be part of the allure. You never hear the snooker guys complaining that the pockets should be looser...
In pool you have a lone guy banging at stuff until they all start going in. Shoot the ball, it stays the same size no matter how hard you bang it. He learns that's good enough to start collecting people's money. Right there the world changes away from the evolution of pool to um, taking people's money. What evolves are the ins and outs of "winning" and "losing". The more people in the pond the more you can take.
Back to the quantum effects on a pool ball; there aren't many to lose any sleep over. The ball does indeed stay the same size as does the pocket. A given strike on a pool shot will produce memorable and repeatable results; always.
So what's the problem? 'Fyask me, incompetence. It doesn't take perfection to take the money. That has long since evolved into "You can't play perfect." and naturally that's enough wisdom to not even bother trying.
Be all that as it may, all it takes would be some training to hit tiny pockets.
First rule: You're not trying to hit the pocket. A properly struck ball will keep going till it rolls through the pocket. It's the path of the ball that needs addressing. The noob musician is not trying to play that A natural at exactly 440 herz. They do learn quick enough to keep it steady though because that's part of the drill.
Seems to me by the time people are competing at pool, they should have their pool geometry down cold. If the pros themselves were hitting tight lines as a matter of fact, tight pockets would be part of the allure. You never hear the snooker guys complaining that the pockets should be looser...
Ghost of OBC
Well-known member
I grew up in Dorset, then southern VA, playing at Q Masters. Pickleball the game has nothing to do with my point, which is that as a business, pool will only succeed if it can turn players into spectators. The game itself isn't visually exciting when played at the highest levels on tight equipment, especially to non-players. Opening it up makes more story lines possible. It also ups the highlights for SoMe consumption. Think about the stories that come out of the practice room at DCC. Scooter's antics are much more engaging than the one pocket final, and I love one pocket.Depending on where I am playing, most halls here have 4.25" standard. 4.5" is mostly found in the bar. There is only one Hall I have been to that had 4 x 4.5" tables (sat lonely amongst three rooms worth of Chinese-8 tables).
The hall I go to the most often has 16 x 4.25" and then also has 4 x 4.125" and one Diamond 4" - the other branch of this company I go to sometimes has 16 x 4.25" 4 x Chinese-8 and one Diamond 4" - I haven't been to their 3rd store.
I think 4.25" is pretty much the standard here (and can be seen across at least three chains that operate in the city, and some smaller halls), and 4.5" gets treated with a bit of a disdain... People here do have a very different idea of what 'good' looks like, or what 'hard' is. They also are much, much quicker to adopt the most popular, or newest things (MR break box, grey cloth, black balls etc etc)
Pickleball makes me want to vomit. How on earth that ever became popular is anyone's gue....oh wait, it's not a guess. It's middle-class morons lapping up expensive tat
Thanks for adding your perspective, definitely see what you are saying in some areas. It's a really complicated balance between; what is watchable? to who is it watchable? is it playable? to who is it playable? is smaller making progress? to who is it progress?
Where did you grow up? I wish I grew up somewhere with access to 9ft pool tables and snooker, I feel I probably would have gravitated towards it much earlier.