Should All Skill Levels Have an Equal Chance to Win a Weekly 9-Ball Handicapped Tournament?

[Bob Jewett]

Been too many non handicapped tourneys that were full.

Sure. Regional level and national tournaments. That's not what the OP is talking about. We're discussing the best way to run a weekly room tournament.

Using the FargoRate handicapping charts, you can pick the advantage you want the better player to have, like 0-10% or 10-20%. I think most players will be OK with the stronger player having a 15% advantage -- that still gives them a reasonable chance to win.

Handicaps for weekly pool tournaments are discussed in this video:

 

[tomatoshooter]

There are a couple of line tournaments around here that I like. Win, move up a table, lose move down a table. People tend to find an equilibrium point so everyone can play straight up. If you outrun your seeing you can cash. It's a great way to handicap an event and challenge and reward all players.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Sometimes non-handicapped tournaments can work. A local room used to have a $5 entry, race to three, weekly nine ball tournament. Almost the cost of table time to play. Quick. Single elimination. I think the room felt it was a good way to get players into the room on a slow night, and then maybe they would stick around.

 

[fjk]

I remember when Dennis Hatch was playing the Zugland's Joss tour in the Northeast. He won 95% of every one of those tournaments he played in (seriously, it was something close to that). That was regular, predictable income for Dennis. I believe players got tired of it and it hurt participation.

I think the same happens in small weekly tournaments. After a while, seeing the same winner(s) just deflates people and they get tired of donating based upon principle more than the money. Once the dead money stops going and the few left can all play, it's not as attractive for the better players either and the tournament fizzles out. I've seen that happen multiple times.

On the other hand, I played in handicapped tournaments where guys brought their wives and kids to play. They won some matches here and there, would cash once in a while, and it kept them coming back.

In my opinion, either you need to bar the players that would consistently rob the tournament or offer some kind of handicap to keep players from getting tired of donating.

 

[DeeDeeCues]

Sure. Regional level and national tournaments. That's not what the OP is talking about. We're discussing the best way to run a weekly room tournament.

Using the FargoRate handicapping charts, you can pick the advantage you want the better player to have, like 0-10% or 10-20%. I think most players will be OK with the stronger player having a 15% advantage -- that still gives them a reasonable chance to win.

Handicaps for weekly pool tournaments are discussed in this video:

I'm not talking about regional tourneys. I mean weekly tourneys. The fun ones will always fill up. The bad ones won't. A good td or business owner will figure out how to make it a fun environment.

I used to play a lot of weekly tourneys that had a ton of attendees who didn't stand a chance every week. The environment was fun, everybody played by the same rules, they ran on time, and problem people were not welcomed back. Some of them did have sit-out rules for people who won too many in a row. I don't necessarily agree with that, but better than handing out trophies to people who sniff their own farts.

By the by, I didn't read your whole post. You will never convince me that handicapped tourneys have any value.

 

[L.S. Dennis]

Sometimes non-handicapped tournaments can work. A local room used to have a $5 entry, race to three, weekly nine ball tournament. Almost the cost of table time to play. Quick. Single elimination. I think the room felt it was a good way to get players into the room on a slow night, and then maybe they would stick around.

I remember back in the 90's in Northern California there were two 9 ball handicap systems running concurrently, one was called the USPPA created by Gene Stary and associate, and the other was created by our own Bob Jewett called NPL (national pool league). I liked Bob's NPL because the only way you could get your rating lowered or raised was by losing or winning a match, and the system allowed buy backs.

The other system involved keeping a score sheet filled with X's and O's to be filled out by the lose of the previous match. Nobody liked that, and much of the time that person would skip out rather than stay and fill out the sheet which created problems. Those filled out score sheets would then be fed into a computer on a weekly basis to determine your new average. Needless to say there was a lot of mischievous manipulation going on with the filling out of those sheets.

 

[Sheldon]

Years ago, there were weekly tournaments in bars around here that did pretty well. You could find one on almost any day of the week.
Problem was, they were mostly bar-rules tourneys that were race to 1, double elimination. You'd sometimes see 40+ at a bar with 4 tables.
Perhaps the fact that the best players could only lose one game helped draw the lesser players. The best players usually won, but you'd see surprises occasionally.
Now, there are less tables, and people want at least a race to two. There's only one tournament I know of in the area now that has more than 2 tables, and it takes all day with more than 16 players. A couple of bars recently shut the tournaments down. I think the races attract better players, which don't do much for the bars. There are obviously other factors as well. I wish I had a solution.

 

[AtLarge]

I remember when Dennis Hatch was playing the Zugland's Joss tour in the Northeast. He won 95% of every one of those tournaments he played in (seriously, it was something close to that). ...

The AzB data base shows Hatch finishing in the money in 40 Joss Tour events from 2002 through 2012, excluding the Turning Stone events. He won 31 of the 40 = 78%. I don't know whether he also played in some events without finishing in the money (not likely, eh?).

The Turning Stone events are also part of the Joss Tour. The data base shows him finishing in the money 22 times, from 2005 through 2019. He has never won it.

 

[fjk]

The AzB data base shows Hatch finishing in the money in 40 Joss Tour events from 2002 through 2012, excluding the Turning Stone events. He won 31 of the 40 = 78%. I don't know whether he also played in some events without finishing in the money (not likely, eh?).

The Turning Stone events are also part of the Joss Tour. The data base shows him finishing in the money 22 times, from 2005 through 2019. He has never won it.

I can't believe you fact checked me. "Close" is qualitative so I say 78 is close to 95. Very close.

 

[CanadianGuy]

strictly pool.......use fargo...period

from a business standpoint, what is this weekly tourney worth to your business?

you likely understand your business better than most here

my .02.......I think you need to consider your bottom line, strong players dissatisfied around handicapping are far more likely to continue than weaker players who get smashed and often won't return...or buy more beers....or bring friends, etc.....

maybe experiment......alternate handicap systems, say a fargo tourney and then a tourney geared towards beginners, give them that race to 1 and thrill of victory, let em celebrate, spend $$$$....come back.....maybe a fargo on the winners side and something easier on the B side for the weaker players

and yeah let the elite players can earn their keep too,
I've seen match play golf for money where the prop is the stronger players wins all 18, have seen them clean up, and have seen them love the spot

maybe play call shot if if you don't wanna see fluke 9s, personally I like the rule where if you call the 9 or 10 and miss you lose, makes people think twice about trying to end a frame early with a funky shot

 

[Justaneng]

Yeah, you already have your opinion, I have mine.

Letting someone win does nothing for their motivation. It only reinforced their sense of entitlement.

Read all of the posts about apa sandbagging. The fact that it happens is proof of what handicapping causes.

Competition isn't for everyone.

There is some weird gatekeeping in pool.

The alternative take is APA puts a 100,000 people into pool halls on a Tuesday, which would be impossible without a handicap system in place (even a faulty one).

If you waved a magic wand and eliminated all handicap systems in pool, there’s a lot of places that would be closed in a matter of weeks. APA, TAP, VNEA, USAPL, BCAPL all use thandicaps, and leagues make up a majority of pool played in the mid week. Leagues are also the only time you get 10 players per table inside a pool hall all ordering drinks. It's not the two guys playing 1 pocket on the 9-footer in the corner, sipping on the same diet coke for 3 hours, paying the rent.

If you enjoy playing in pool halls, wanting to eliminate handicaps might as well be shooting yourself in the d***

 

[garczar]

There is some weird gatekeeping in pool.

The alternative take is APA puts a 100,000 people into pool halls on a Tuesday, which would be impossible without a handicap system in place (even a faulty one).

If you waved a magic wand and eliminated all handicap systems in pool, there’s a lot of places that would be closed in a matter of weeks. APA, TAP, VNEA, USAPL, BCAPL all use thandicaps, and leagues make up a majority of pool played in the mid week. Leagues are also the only time you get 10 players per table inside a pool hall all ordering drinks. It's not the two guys playing 1 pocket on the 9-footer in the corner, sipping on the same diet coke for 3 hours, paying the rent.

If you enjoy playing in pool halls, wanting to eliminate handicaps might as well be shooting yourself in the d***

Not a APA fan but i get your take on hd'cap leagues. Also Fargo events have spread like wildfire nationwide. More people playing tournaments than in YEARS. Pre-Fargo did you EVER see $1000 entry-fee events?? NEVER and now they are almost monthly somewhere. The days of tournaments filled with 90% dead-money are over.

 

[The_JV]

There's one constant we can count on. Regardless of their experience, all pool players are professional whiners.

Top players will complain about the grind handicaps force them to endure. Bottom players will complain about doing nothing but watching the other guy play. Top players will say you're paying too much of the field. Bottom players will say that you don't pay down enough so they can cash.

My .02..., if it ain't actually broke don't try to fix it. The top guys will always roll around from time to time. You may lose some of the bottom guys, but they're a dime a dozen.

My local room used to have an incredible weekly tourney about 20yrs ago. We're talking 35-40 players. ~6-8 of which would threaten to win 1200-1500 w/ calcutta combined. I'd say the bottom 30% were complete dead money. The worst thing that room owner did (TD) was introduce heavy handicapping to appease the bottom end. Started off with game spots, then combined with variable entry, then open ended the max handicap based on events wins. For a very short time it was entertaining for the top players to see how high they could get. Craziest weight I can remember was something like a 13-2 race. It became a farce.... The bottom ends will always find something new to complain about and not show, and the top end finally got weeded out.

 

[garczar]

There's one constant we can count on. Regardless of their experience, all pool players are professional whiners.

Top players will complain about the grind handicaps force them to endure. Bottom players will complain about doing nothing but watching the other guy play. Top players will say you're paying too much of the field. Bottom players will say that you don't pay down enough so they can cash.

My .02..., if it ain't actually broke don't try to fix it. The top guys will always roll around from time to time. You may lose some of the bottom guys, but they're a dime a dozen.

My local room used to have an incredible weekly tourney about 20yrs ago. We're talking 35-40 players. ~6-8 of which would threaten to win 1200-1500 w/ calcutta combined. I'd say the bottom 30% were complete dead money. The worst thing that room owner did (TD) was introduce heavy handicapping to appease the bottom end. Started of with game spots, then combined with variable entry, then open ended the max handicap based on events wins. For a very short time it was entertaining for the top players to see how high they could get. Craziest weight I can remember was something like a 13-2 race. It became a farce.... The bottom ends will always find something new to complain about and not show, and the top end finally got weeded out.

In amateur events there needs to be some hd'capping/equalization used. Without it the same few players win/steal the money every time. Its not about appeasing 'whiners' as it is trying to balance the talent/skill and reduce the 'stealing'. People need to work to get better for sure but having events loaded with dead $$ is no good either. In my area(Ok,Ks,Mo) fields are bigger than ever(bigger payouts too) due to Fargo. The better players still usually win but they have to play their best every match, not near as many easy beat-downs.

 

[Dimeball]

and yet another example of why the last generation or two are such wusses. If you don't like losing, practice harder damm!t!

 

[garczar]

and yet another example of why the last generation or two are such wusses. If you don't like losing, practice harder damm!t!

Real easy to say but go try to run a decent amateur event without it. To use a golf analogy, would a bunch of 20hd'cap golfers enter a event to play PGA pros heads up?? Hell no they wouldn't. I know this is extreme example but it makes my point pretty clear.

 

[Atorontopoolplayer]

Probably controversial take, but Fargo capped tournaments frequently occurring at random caps
611 524 746 etc
And then even races or close to it in those tournaments are in fact good.

 

[garczar]

Probably controversial take, but Fargo capped tournaments frequently occurring at random caps
611 524 746 etc
And then even races or close to it in those tournaments are in fact good.

To use a funny phrase, 'You can't throw a dead cat' without hitting a FR even in my area. Somewhere in Ok,Ks,Mo,Tx,Ar there is a FR event weekly if not more often than that.

 

[Jon Turner]

Is the purpose of the tournament to provide a living to a few top players, or generate cash flow for the hosting venue? No cash flow no venue eventually. Balance in all things, so it must draw enough participants regularly but not too many or it never finishes. Not everyone has no life but pool and can hangout in a hall until 2-4am on a weekday. My proposal would be open Fargo hot column, spot goes down until 1 game first, then climbs on the high side to keep it from taking forever to finish. Set signup and start time with hard cutoff. The same folks that complain also can't seem to arrive on time. Let field numbers direct any needed modifications. And players don't forget to support your hosting hall with some revenue or you won't have a place to play for long.

 

[Jon Turner]

Forgot to add cheap entry fee for those on a budget and pay top three to drive want to improve. Let the bigger payoff come from the calcutta for those that want to participate and maybe pay further down from calcutta to drive interest there.