Arguing with experts

[Rimfirejunkie]

Internet

There are cuemakers that absolutely are the experts to go to. The challenge is that there are a thousand people callilng themselves cuemaking experts that frankly aren't experts. We've had many on these boards that still get the occassional joke slung about.

And then there are people on these boards whose entire career is in manufacturing, assembly engineering, adhesive applications, motion controls, robotics, plastics, UV curing, . If cuemakers (or anyone like case builders, training device inventors, etc.) don't take advantage of the expertise in this AZB community when they have questions on these things, then I hope they are going to someone ..., a true recongnized indusrty expert in the whatever field. If not, then we could turn it around and wonder why they wouldn't.

It's entertaining, right?

Why and how. It’s a struggle. Some folks don’t know either.

 

[Cue Alchemist]

There are, or were?, a lot of folks on here who know a whole lot and are willing to share. On the other side of it, you need folks who will shut up and listen. The folks who won't make it miserable for the rest.

Yep,a lot of those guys aren't here any more. It's a shame.the only thing good about this forum,is the cuemakers that still post.guys that have been here since I joined in 07.they have wealth of knowledge.it makes me laugh,when I read members arguing with guys, who have been in the business of cues, or instructors or former pros who been doing,what they do for 30 years plus.
.

 

[Cue Alchemist]

There is no cuebuilder that understands all aspects of a cue and cue building. No reason they should. They know how to build a good or great cue for the most part, they don't know the endless ways of doing it, no reason they should. The old masters didn't know a whole lot, they just knew a way that worked.

A friend paid $30,000 for a fiddle. He said he thought it would help him move up from third chair to second chair. I thought that a thumbtack would be a lot cheaper but Bob waited a few years and paid the cash without a whine. That was mid-nineties dollars too so probably twice that now. One thing interesting, the builder told him every instrument he built would be a very good one but one in twenty or thirty would be a great one. He couldn't pin down why or all his instruments would be great and he would be charging over fifty thousand for them.

I think it is much the same with the best cue builders. You are almost certain to get a very good quality cue but once in awhile somebody gets a great one. Not even the builder knows why or they would only build great cues.

Hu

Hu,
Over the last 20 years of dealing with many cuemakers. i was a teenager then, obsessed with cues.Over the years the one thing you learn.is everyone wants to build that,one off great hitting cue.It's a rare thing indeed. Even when the whole thing is built for you, there is a never a guarantee.It's more about getting a consistent,one off design.if everyone knew why or what makes something, hit that good.you would be making millions lol!

 

[Cornerman]

Ooh, you just made me think.
We encourage engineers to come to our classes. Engineers that design wastewater plants. these multimillion dollar plants that are sometimes just very poorly designed because the engineer does not understand the process. and the end user is the one that we have to consult and help. it drive us nuts
I assume this happens in other industries as well.
I hope it is not the case in the pool world. Meaning horrible machines that the cue builder has to find a work around for.

It is absolutely true in the pool industry, unfortunately, from fits and tolerances (or lack thereof) to safety measures around standalone, automated processes.

 

[Zerksies]

I'd question some of these "experts" I'm not taking advice from someone that i play better then. But with the internet haters are going to hate.

 

[boogieman]

I'd question some of these "experts" I'm not taking advice from someone that i play better then. But with the internet haters are going to hate.

I understand that, but you should also be open (not saying you're not) to "lesser player's" advice. There's a lot of people that are damn good coaches or might just see things differently than you or I do. I have a buddy that is top notch on fundamental stuff and can pretty much instantly pinpoint the reason someone is off on a particular night. He's helped me and a lot of players that are better players.

To be frank, there's a lot of shit coaches/instructors, but sometimes that "C player" has a lot of knowledge, even if they have trouble executing it. I'm kind of an example of that, though I'm not as bad as I used to be. I understand an awful lot of stuff but it took me years to find someone willing to work on me with fundamentals and such to where I could actually put the info to use. Not all shitty players are dumb about all aspects of the game, and some of them are absolutely great at explaining things multiple ways.

Locally, where I live, we're stuck behind the times where players are just now getting to the point of not wanting to take knowledge to the grave. In a place with a "club" culture, like how Europe does it, pool is light years ahead because of sharing, coaching, dedication, discipline, etc.

I'd honestly like to find a "mental" coach for the game but I also don't want to start asking a great player about stuff they don't normally think about. It can be detrimental to their game.

 

[Zerksies]

I understand that, but you should also be open (not saying you're not) to "lesser player's" advice. There's a lot of people that are damn good coaches or might just see things differently than you or I do. I have a buddy that is top notch on fundamental stuff and can pretty much instantly pinpoint the reason someone is off on a particular night. He's helped me and a lot of players that are better players.

To be frank, there's a lot of shit coaches/instructors, but sometimes that "C player" has a lot of knowledge, even if they have trouble executing it. I'm kind of an example of that, though I'm not as bad as I used to be. I understand an awful lot of stuff but it took me years to find someone willing to work on me with fundamentals and such to where I could actually put the info to use. Not all shitty players are dumb about all aspects of the game, and some of them are absolutely great at explaining things multiple ways.

Locally, where I live, we're stuck behind the times where players are just now getting to the point of not wanting to take knowledge to the grave. In a place with a "club" culture, like how Europe does it, pool is light years ahead because of sharing, coaching, dedication, discipline, etc.

I'd honestly like to find a "mental" coach for the game but I also don't want to start asking a great player about stuff they don't normally think about. It can be detrimental to their game.

I was the "C player" for a long time, then i took lessons with a mentor that was an "Open player" My stroke caught up with my knowledge and my playing ability exploded.

 

[boogieman]

I was the "C player" for a long time, then i took lessons with a mentor that was an "Open player" My stroke caught up with my knowledge and my playing ability exploded.

I've felt similar. I used to study banking and kicking systems at lunch while I was at work. No table there but I got really good at the math. I could barely ever be hooked into a point of giving up BIH... but at the same time I couldn't make 4 easy shots in a row! Once the fundamentals and shot making were addressed I play much better, but now I've forgotten all the math!

 

[Zerksies]

I've felt similar. I used to study banking and kicking systems at lunch while I was at work. No table there but I got really good at the math. I could barely ever be hooked into a point of giving up BIH... but at the same time I couldn't make 4 easy shots in a row! Once the fundamentals and shot making were addressed I play much better, but now I've forgotten all the math!

Before the internet I had all the Cappelle books basically memorized, Plus quite a few others. I took some lessons and learned to straighten out my stroke.

I am not knocking all these "experts" I am very selective as to what i am learning from now. Most of these videos are geared towards begining players. I never have been much of a straight pool player but i have been watching Bob Kellers videos the break down of a rack is very good.

 

[Cue Alchemist]

I've felt similar. I used to study banking and kicking systems at lunch while I was at work. No table there but I got really good at the math. I could barely ever be hooked into a point of giving up BIH... but at the same time I couldn't make 4 easy shots in a row! Once the fundamentals and shot making were addressed I play much better, but now I've forgotten all the math!

It's amazing, just how much you can improve,if you're taught the right techniques to correct certain errors.you didn't even know where there.once you know how to improve.the hard work begins. And that don't matter what standard you where before.if you understand how to something better.you bet,you will improve fast.
Having the right coach,that works for you, always a worth a try.

 

[Black-Balled]

As gross as it is. The related topic has the biggest convention in the world i believe. I don't think people know about it because its all business related. It is combined wastewater/freshwater.
Actually fun conventions. Suprising how many companies i wouldnt expect to be there. Like Mitsubishi, i think they make large scale generators.

1- Nobody wants DEQ at their job site.
b) how do we make it look like we care?

Both and everything in between!!!

 

[nataddrho]

I've felt similar. I used to study banking and kicking systems at lunch while I was at work. No table there but I got really good at the math. I could barely ever be hooked into a point of giving up BIH... but at the same time I couldn't make 4 easy shots in a row! Once the fundamentals and shot making were addressed I play much better, but now I've forgotten all the math!

I’m often made fun of (albeit internet style) from being very mathy, but only for the recreation of understanding the physics.

I’ll be the first to agree that it is almost useless when actually playing, as we need to play by feel over all else.

I never think of a single number when playing, except maybe the score.

 

[Zerksies]

I’m often made fun of (albeit internet style) from being very mathy, but only for the recreation of understanding the physics.

I’ll be the first to agree that it is almost useless when actually playing, as we need to play by feel over all else.

I never think of a single number when playing, except maybe the score.

This game has nuances that can't be measured. Just like golf

 

[SmoothStroke]

I can miss with any cue it doesn't matter the expert, layman, carpenter or plumber who built it.
If I want to make a purchase for something that I am knowledgeable ,or know little to nothing about, I will do research until my OCD grows OCD and has twins.

The specialist may attempt to fool me with nonsense or persuade me that they are an authority. If I should
pose any inquiries, I know the majority of the answers.
Always in the picture is who I am working with and who I trust.
It doesn't really matter because I already know all I need to know about the item I'm buying.
So what do you want to know....lol

 

[straightline]

Math is a gateway language. However that works, best I can see, it's used to implement control of the environment.
Performance by human is a deeper language; probably still some kind of math but far from comprehensible as such.

 

[ShootingArts]

Good advice is where you find it. Major league baseball is a fine example. No idea now I don't keep up with baseball. When I did, the batting coaches and the base coaches had never been superstars. What they had been were very good journeymen. Maybe less natural talent made them have to work harder and the good ones could convey what they had learned the hard way.

We all have to decide what advice is good for us. I think I was rounding out a book order to get free shipping or something, I bought a book that I believe was titled "Finding the Zone" or something similar. The book was written by a PhD, maybe a MD. The book had value in other areas and I didn't begrudge the few dollars spent on it but it became obvious that the author had never been in the zone or recognized it if he was there. His idea of the zone was to be fully physically and mentally prepared. A good foundation for the zone but almost nothing to do with the zone. I passed the book on with the warning to ignore everything said about the zone. It was the blind leading the blind and it was invested with the authority of his PhD, who would dare disagree with this expert.

Hu

 

[Jimmy_Betmore]

One thought also comes to mind when i see a lot of the threads on the forum. I think most would just consider them trolls. But i'm thinking of the people that comment the most, belittle and insult, and seem to think if they reply the most and have they last word that they are correct, or smarter. Knowledge doesnt work that way.

Exactly. One cannot brute force their way into being correct.

 

[Biloxi Boy]

Exactly. One cannot brute force their way into being correct.

see, "Tush Hog"

"A tushhog in the South is an old guy who always finishes fights. A tushhog bar is a bar with these guys in it and NO ONE starts trouble in there with these guys. Size or physical appearance has nothing to do with these guys, they are just insane fighters. The name itself comes from the the fact that old boars have very long tusks (tush) that they can cut anything up with. The other definition in the Urban Dictionary is totally wrong and would probably be laughed at in the South. In fact to call someone a "tushhog" is a sign of respect and never an insult!" urbandictionary.com

Tush Hogs are famous for prevailing in all things by use of brute force and physical intimidation. Not an ounce of sense or reason to be found in 300 lbs of very unstable explosive material. Best strategy for dealing with one is not to try; instead, get and stay very far away. Anyone who has ever been around one knows exactly what I am talking about.

For an old AZB perspective: https://forums.azbilliards.com/threads/what-do-you-think-tush-hog-means.257414/

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Good advice is where you find it. Major league baseball is a fine example. No idea now I don't keep up with baseball. When I did, the batting coaches and the base coaches had never been superstars. What they had been were very good journeymen. Maybe less natural talent made them have to work harder and the good ones could convey what they had learned the hard way.

We all have to decide what advice is good for us. I think I was rounding out a book order to get free shipping or something, I bought a book that I believe was titled "Finding the Zone" or something similar. The book was written by a PhD, maybe a MD. The book had value in other areas and I didn't begrudge the few dollars spent on it but it became obvious that the author had never been in the zone or recognized it if he was there. His idea of the zone was to be fully physically and mentally prepared. A good foundation for the zone but almost nothing to do with the zone. I passed the book on with the warning to ignore everything said about the zone. It was the blind leading the blind and it was invested with the authority of his PhD, who would dare disagree with this expert.

Hu

Great post and excellent observations.

 

[ShootingArts]

see, "Tush Hog"

"A tushhog in the South is an old guy who always finishes fights. A tushhog bar is a bar with these guys in it and NO ONE starts trouble in there with these guys. Size or physical appearance has nothing to do with these guys, they are just insane fighters. The name itself comes from the the fact that old boars have very long tusks (tush) that they can cut anything up with. The other definition in the Urban Dictionary is totally wrong and would probably be laughed at in the South. In fact to call someone a "tushhog" is a sign of respect and never an insult!" urbandictionary.com

Tush Hogs are famous for prevailing in all things by use of brute force and physical intimidation. Not an ounce of sense or reason to be found in 300 lbs of very unstable explosive material. Best strategy for dealing with one is not to try; instead, get and stay very far away. Anyone who has ever been around one knows exactly what I am talking about.

For an old AZB perspective: https://forums.azbilliards.com/threads/what-do-you-think-tush-hog-means.257414/

I went to a poker game one time just to sit behind a player. I was warned, whatever you do don't get in a fight with Bill. Bill was well shy of six feet, what hair he had was gray, most of his 170 pounds or so were in his beer gut. What was the deal?

First thing he would do in a fight was take it to the ground and bite an ear off. He said nobody could fight thinking about a missing ear. He said you get the whole ear in your mouth and then it is just a little skin to bite through. Easiest thing in the world. "Uh, OK."

I didn't mess with Bill!

Hu