Practice Without Help - Get Better?

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BarTableMan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You take an average league player (example 4 level APA) and have them practice for 4 hours a day for a year. They must do this on their own with NO outside help. No, books, no DVDs, no YouTube, no teachers, no more league matches, nothing. Does the player move up a level in skill? I say no. That person would simply do the same 4 level things over and over. Stroke the same and shoot the same choices without gaining skills.

I bring this up because I hear people all the time..."If I had a table at home, I'd be much better." NOPE. You need help from someone or something better than you to gain new knowledge.

(I probably own every pool book and every DVD around...but once I got an instructor to guide and "scold" me...then I got better. Just say'n.)

Thoughts...
 
There are plenty of materials around the net, including paid or purchase clips/books.

IMO, you better learning and practicing on your own. You may discover yourself and what works for you uniquely. This is fact for many other areas in life. Just as long as you have a good willing to go ahead to practice and seeking out materials.

Also having a friend who compete against you in the sport, spend time competing and discussing the game. It keeps up the motivations, momentum, and fires going.

I don't agree that you have to have an instructor to become better.

I do agree that having your own table doesn't mean you automatically get better. If you don't seek out the materials and know which one is to follow or adapt , you can always easily be multiplying your errors and mistakes rather than improving
 
BarTableMan said:
... I bring this up because I hear people all the time..."If I had a table at home, I'd be much better." NOPE. You need help from someone or something better than you to gain new knowledge. ...
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I think reinventing the whole game on your own would be nearly impossible, but it depends on the person. There have been players who advanced techniques so far that the rules had to be changed to limit them. Few see that far ahead.
 
They already have a working knowledge , so if you give them that much time and they put in even the smallest amount of effort all by themselves how would it be that someone wouldn't play better , smarter , more accurate ? Even if they kept making many of the same mistakes over and over there will be an ah ha moment . They will make corrections , and pocket more balls . I watched what few matches were televised back in the day and saw how it was possible to put " spin " on a ball to change the direction of the cue ball . That changed my life , I saw it was possible to run a rack . That was all needed , I ran with it and played by myself for hours and I am pretty sure I became better
 
Well, hitting a million ball is still something that stand true. You probably will improve, but not as fast as if you were to seek out the materials. Some people only need to hit 1/4 HAM and saw significant improvements and some people could do 4x HAM and see some similarities in improvement

Shane hits and spend time on his table almost 10 hours a day lol
 
Depends on their previous sports training, experience, mindset.
If they've been a league playing 4 for more than a year, I would say no.
If they have previous training in another sport and applied those techniques, probably a 6 or 7 in a year or two.
Amazing what a person can do with a video camera and work ethic.
 
Depends 🙂 Max Lechner just talked to Sharivari about this on YouTube. Max said about himself that he always needed a coach. Even sticking to his for life. Mario He on the other hand never had a coach, according to Max. Different minds, different.... Trying to figure everything out on you own without coach, video, books and any material sounds like it would take a very long time. A table at home is definitely helping, of you use it to practice, of course.

Also, there are things you only learn in competition and not at home alone.
 
BarTableMan said:
You take an average league player (example 4 level APA) and have them practice for 4 hours a day for a year. They must do this on their own with NO outside help. No, books, no DVDs, no YouTube, no teachers, no more league matches, nothing. Does the player move up a level in skill? I say no. That person would simply do the same 4 level things over and over. Stroke the same and shoot the same choices without gaining skills.

I bring this up because I hear people all the time..."If I had a table at home, I'd be much better." NOPE. You need help from someone or something better than you to gain new knowledge.

(I probably own every pool book and every DVD around...but once I got an instructor to guide and "scold" me...then I got better. Just say'n.)

Thoughts...
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I think playing in competition is what makes you better. I have a home table and use it daily. But without competition it’s hard to adapt the skills at home to actual play. Just like a golfer who does nothing but hit balls at the driving range.
 
I would love an instructor, have tried many times to find one. Sadly there aren't any in New England that want anything other than a Junior student.
 
If your practice 4 hours a day and you have any knowledge of the game at all you better improve.

I’m an old man and I’ve played for years. I learned most of what I know by myself. Years ago people did have access to the information like they do today. Players didn’t just openly try to help you get better either. Sure I learned a lot from from just watching other players and yes some people showed me things here and there but most of all I spent hours practicing.

Knowledge is only half the battle. You also have to be able to execute that knowledge on the table. I’m just a banger so my opinion is basically worthless.
 
BarTableMan said:
I bring this up because I hear people all the time..."If I had a table at home, I'd be much better." NOPE. You need help from someone or something better than you to gain new knowledge.
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You are probably right, that the players only use it as an excuse. And that they are probably not really interested in becoming better.

But someone who made the experience of becoming really good in another field (like playing cello or golf) can get much better practicing on his own with no extra help.

The key to becoming very very good is "deliberate practice", a term made popular by a book of Malcolm Gladwell "Outliers". It basically means to break down whatever you are learning into small parts and work repeatedly on these parts, till you master them. With great eye for precision.

A great coach can help a lot but at the end you need to be willing (and enjoying) to put in the time in the right form of practice.
 
BarTableMan said:
You take an average league player (example 4 level APA) and have them practice for 4 hours a day for a year. They must do this on their own with NO outside help. No, books, no DVDs, no YouTube, no teachers, no more league matches, nothing. Does the player move up a level in skill? I say no. That person would simply do the same 4 level things over and over. Stroke the same and shoot the same choices without gaining skills.

I bring this up because I hear people all the time..."If I had a table at home, I'd be much better." NOPE. You need help from someone or something better than you to gain new knowledge.

(I probably own every pool book and every DVD around...but once I got an instructor to guide and "scold" me...then I got better. Just say'n.)

Thoughts...
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Everyone is wired differently.

Some guys would improve given the circumstances you described whether they had their own table or not. Others won't get better or could even get worse. But if you have a good sense of self-awareness and the discipline to concentrate, evaluate, change, practice, and repeat you can get better on your own.

But that's a bridge too far for most.

Lou Figueroa
 
I firmly believe that for 99% of sports participants - proper initial instruction is the key for them to begin to become very accomplished at any sport. In every sport there is also that 1% who have much greater natural ability in most if not all aspects of that sport and those naturally gifted few just keep getting better if they devote the time to hone those skills.

One thing for sure relative to pool playing- if you are not naturally gifted with great mechanics and great focus ability and you start out playing for years on the wrong foot- once you do become aware of your shortfalls it takes a lot of work to let go of old bad habits and get it all where it is correct. I struggle with this even after years of trying to fix everything that I did wrong for so long a time period.
 
APA4 get any better i highly doubt it.

Will i get any better in a year? Yes. I've had lesson and i know what i am looking for when and error is made. I'm hitting the ball and playing better then last year.
 
BarTableMan said:
You take an average league player (example 4 level APA) and have them practice for 4 hours a day for a year. They must do this on their own with NO outside help. No, books, no DVDs, no YouTube, no teachers, no more league matches, nothing. Does the player move up a level in skill? I say no. That person would simply do the same 4 level things over and over. Stroke the same and shoot the same choices without gaining skills.

I bring this up because I hear people all the time..."If I had a table at home, I'd be much better." NOPE. You need help from someone or something better than you to gain new knowledge.

(I probably own every pool book and every DVD around...but once I got an instructor to guide and "scold" me...then I got better. Just say'n.)

Thoughts...
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I know many players (women mostly), that have played for 10+ years and have trouble getting 3 balls in a row without luck. I know players that have played for a year that can almost break and run a table. All depends on how not stubborn and dedicated the person is and how their overall attitude is. I doubt anyone that would buy a table would not use some outside instruction to work on their game as well. It's like saying "If someone just bought a race car without any outside help can they race it". It is just not a thing that would happen, unless the person was just a dope.
 
I made three periods of significant improvement. All of them involved having a great deal of time to play. One involved reading pool books. The other two involved a group of cohorts who played way above my level. In my opinion, there is no substitute for playing with excellent players who have a genuine interest in helping you improve. I never did the instructional video thing, but I watched a group of young cats at the pool hall who were deep into the videos and they seemed to learn a lot from them.

Sorry, but this is where I return to my lament over the death of old time pool halls. These places were truly "schools of pool". The players who habituated them were faculty with different specialties and varied approaches. One had to be fortunate enough to be accepted into the classes, but once you were admitted, you stayed enrolled as long as you kept your shit straight. Study Hall was always in session.

You can teach yourself some. People of equal skill can help each other to a certain extent. I am convinced, however, that a person of average ability can experience quantum improvement only by playing often with much better players. I can't understand how this will occur over a broad census without our pool halls. There will always be a place here and a place there, just as there will always be a few young giant killers coming up. As for the "rank and file", while I know how it once worked for us, I just can't imagine what happens next.
 
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BarTableMan said:
You take an average league player (example 4 level APA) and have them practice for 4 hours a day for a year. They must do this on their own with NO outside help. No, books, no DVDs, no YouTube, no teachers, no more league matches, nothing. Does the player move up a level in skill? I say no. That person would simply do the same 4 level things over and over. Stroke the same and shoot the same choices without gaining skills.

I bring this up because I hear people all the time..."If I had a table at home, I'd be much better." NOPE. You need help from someone or something better than you to gain new knowledge.

(I probably own every pool book and every DVD around...but once I got an instructor to guide and "scold" me...then I got better. Just say'n.)

Thoughts...
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Strongly agree.....Speaking for myself.... after 50 years my runs were 3-6balls ... after lessons with Scott Lee (RIP), working on drills, understanding what I'm to do and how to practice...having reliable shooting system. I can get through a rack..Highest run was 32 which is great for me. Had few 8n out 1p runs etc. Without instruction/instructor I'd did the same thing over and over. Zero improvement. I cannot learn pool on my own. I cannot self analyze. I need to be coached/instructed. Scott would say Practice the drills and take them to the game.
 
So even with books and video to provide drills and so on, you still think having instructors are better?
GoldCrown said:
Strongly agree.....Speaking for myself.... after 50 years my runs were 3-6balls ... after lessons with Scott Lee (RIP), working on drills, understanding what I'm to do and how to practice...having reliable shooting system. I can get through a rack..Highest run was 32 which is great for me. Had few 8n out 1p runs etc. Without instruction/instructor I'd did the same thing over and over. Zero improvement. I cannot learn pool on my own. I cannot self analyze. I need to be coached/instructed. Scott would say Practice the drills and take them to the game.
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Most people who say they are self taught, are not, and of the thousands of people I have watched play for 30 years or more I have seen very few people who did not have a better player helping them, get past an APA 5. When I did research on the great players from 1850 on , There was a definite pedigree line, Michael Phelan was champion , his son in law Dudley Kavanaugh,became champion , Kavanaughs nephew Maurice Daly , became champion , Daly mentored Hoppe who became champion ,and I have read that Harold Worst was a student of Hoppe , but I haven't verified it. There have been a couple of outliers who they don't know who helped them or if anyone did. But I would say there was almost always someone with greaer knowledge in the background.
Almost all the strokes and concepts of pool and billiards was known by Mingaud, how he figured it all out in just a few years is mind blowing.
We know there was no one to teach him much because the leather tip wasn't invented yet and they were still playing with maces, although you can jump and draw with just a wooden tip and they did chalk them sometimes. So they may have been applying a touch of spin.
Some of the shots in Mingauds book look like fantasy shots , but John Thurston verified that Mingaud came in and made every shot diagrammed in only a limited amount of tries.
 
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