The smaller pockets are helping the weak players, its very deep and people don't see it.

[Patrick Johnson]

...the "lesser" players will get more opportunities at the table than they had before. But on the flip side of that coin, the "lesser" players should be giving the better players more opportunities

Lesser players will get fewer added opportunities and will do less with each of them.

pj
chgo

 

[rexus31]

With time some of you will see it but let me remind everyone as I've seen some previous posts about a GUY going into some certain poolhall and beating bangers on his SMALL POCKETS.

This isn't about you going to a POOLHALL beating some bangers or winning local tournaments thus PROVING that you being better than them and still winning on smaller pockets therefore my theory is wrong.

I'm here SPEAKING about world class players VERSUS the top 5 ELITES.......we had top 5 elites but with these smaller pockets we completely REMOVED the TOP 5 elites and made all world class players a same. So lets just roll a dice next tournaments and pick a winner shall we? why would we bother when we completely and utterly removed what the top 5 or top 10 ELITES have worked for over the years.

And by the way just so you know even if you asked the top 5 elite players about the small pockets they'll tell you that THEY LOVE IT....do you know why? because either 1) PRIDE, or 2) just don't want to admit it....some of the elite players will never tell you they prefer bigger pockets because inside of their brains they must believe they can outshoot everybody and I'm sure they can, I'm 100% sure they can outshoot everybody this is not up for debate.

But in pool it so often happens that everybody misses we're all human even the top 5 elites right? but they probably will miss less, but will that matter? NOT 100% of the time, do you know why?

Because the top 5 elites can miss 2 times.....and the world class pro (non elite) can miss 7 times..........and YET in a race to 9 the world class pro will win, do you know why? I hate to keep repeating myself but here we go.

THE MISS ITSELF DOESNT MATTER, again for the 100 times, when somebody misses we gotta ask ourself "WHAT WILL HAPPEN AFTER THE MISS" this is so so so crucial guys, I need you to write this in a paper & the next tournament you watch when a pro player or elite player misses, I want you to keep your eyes on the cueball + object ball, because this is all on the hand of pool gods (don't bring up 2way shots alright), pros have one thing in their mind is to run out.

So again elite can miss 2 times, and pro can miss 7 times & still the non-elite will win, why? it so happens that the pool gods put every scenario after the miss into the non-elite guy and that's it.

Now you'll tell me, but its all "if if if if" well come on guys, isn't this what will happen with smaller pockets? now you might start seeing a point here, next tournament just keep all of this info in your mind when you see a fargo top5 elite player versus a new pro guy alright.

Also some of you may say "well, the miss & what happens after the miss" also happens with default sized pockets, ill tell you true but the elite pro's will miss way less that it can give the world pro player maybe one rack, but once the elites get into a good rhythm, they're 6packing it out.

Guys, you will not agree now....and I don't expect you to, but next 3.5 inch pockets you see just remember this one sentence.

When a miss <-- is not important, keep an eye on "what happens after a miss" and write it down, this will conclude the outcome of the match and your elite player is in the hand of god, sometimes they'll win if the god wants them to......which is why I am really mad at this smaller pocket change, it completely ADDED MORE LUCK....

I said it before we already are dealing with the friggin rolls of the BREAK SHOT & the layout after the break........now they added this problem by introding smaller pockets, so now you have to deal with 3 problems.

1- break shot, where will the Cueball go when kicked? we saw what happened to SVB.
2- layout after the break, all matter of luck (i can put to you a layout that 13 yr old can run, then i can put to you a layout not even SVB can run, its dumb)
3- Now new instruction of smaller pockets causing more misses which isn't a problem but main problem is the rolls/luck that are associated with "What will happen after the miss, am i gonna come out like roses or what?".

Now that's what we're dealing with.

I made it through your extended drivel, so there's that. Look, I get it. You prefer the top 5 players winning every event and running packages. Where has that gotten pro pool up to this point? If that's what you like, keep watching your Accu Stats VHS tapes. The game has evolved in many ways, including tighter equipment. We will not see 3.5" pockets but what we will see is great pool played on challenging equipment, played by the world's most talented players in the history of the game. There is NO denying the talent level at the pro level is at an all time high. Any of the WNT touring pros is capable of winning an event. Does it take some rolls? When has it not? All of your "Top 5 elite" have gotten rolls in tournament wins along the way. As far as your after miss scenario, A. There ere no pool gods and B. This hasn't changed due to tight equipment. Getting a good or bad roll after an opponent's miss is part of the game, regardless of pocket size. Even on tight equipment, these players are missing in the single digits so you can't convince me the misses and leaves are the only defining moments in a match. Matchroom has done a fine job promoting the sport, making the game of 9B more difficult for top level players and finally organizing the pro game. To get bent over it because the pockets are tight and the top 5 don't win every event is ridiculous. I posted the 2023 WNT results in a previous post. Not a slouch in the group. As I've said, it's not the pockets. It's the break and the format of the events that has created parity and guess what? It's good for the game and its growth. If you don't like it, don't watch. Fire up the VCR and watch Johnny Archer run packages on 5" pockets.

 

[SEB]

I made it through your extended drivel, so there's that. Look, I get it. You prefer the top 5 players winning every event and running packages. Where has that gotten pro pool up to this point? If that's what you like, keep watching your Accu Stats VHS tapes. The game has evolved in many ways, including tighter equipment. We will not see 3.5" pockets but what we will see is great pool played on challenging equipment, played by the world's most talented players in the history of the game. There is NO denying the talent level at the pro level is at an all time high. Any of the WNT touring pros is capable of winning an event. Does it take some rolls? When has it not? All of your "Top 5 elite" have gotten rolls in tournament wins along the way. As far as your after miss scenario, A. There ere no pool gods and B. This hasn't changed due to tight equipment. Getting a good or bad roll after an opponent's miss is part of the game, regardless of pocket size. Even on tight equipment, these players are missing in the single digits so you can't convince me the misses and leaves are the only defining moments in a match. Matchroom has done a fine job promoting the sport, making the game of 9B more difficult for top level players and finally organizing the pro game. To get bent over it because the pockets are tight and the top 5 don't win every event is ridiculous. I posted the 2023 WNT results in a previous post. Not a slouch in the group. As I've said, it's not the pockets. It's the break and the format of the events that has created parity and guess what? It's good for the game and its growth. If you don't like it, don't watch. Fire up the VCR and watch Johnny Archer run packages on 5" pockets.

That’s not what he’s saying.

 

[rexus31]

That’s not what he’s saying.

What's he saying?

 

[The_JV]

I'm here SPEAKING about world class players VERSUS the top 5 ELITES.......we had top 5 elites but with these smaller pockets we completely REMOVED the TOP 5 elites and made all world class players a same. So lets just roll a dice next tournaments and pick a winner shall we? why would we bother when we completely and utterly removed what the top 5 or top 10 ELITES have worked for over the years. And by the way just so you know even if you asked the top 5 elite players about the small pockets they'll tell you that THEY LOVE IT....do you know why? because either 1) PRIDE, or 2) just don't want to admit it....some of the elite players will never tell you they prefer bigger pockets because inside of their brains they must believe they can outshoot everybody and I'm sure they can, I'm 100% sure they can outshoot everybody this is not up for debate.

This is awesome... So you have an ill gotten theory. Which is solely based on how the "top 5 elite" are effected by small pockets, but then completely discount the opinion of those very same players because contradicts your theory. ...and then try to explain away their opinion as nothing more than ego.

Could it be that you don't want to admit something...?

 

[ShootingArts]

Smaller pockets benefit better players. The only possible exception is when it is the slightly weaker player's pet table they play on near daily and it and the room are unknown to the better player.

Hu

 

[jshaw]

Skills mean nothing, just the rolls literally. Got it.

 

[Twocylndr]

Totally makes sense to me. The Better player leaves hangers on the small pockets and the lesser player sweeps swoops moves in and makes the hanger...then plays safe waiting for the next hanger to cash in yet again!

 

[smiling_Hans]

Totally makes sense to me. The Better player leaves hangers on the small pockets and the lesser player sweeps swoops moves in and makes the hanger...then plays safe waiting for the next hanger to cash in yet again!

Basically this.

From the local level, the lesser player will miss by a big margin. The better player hangs the ball.

So of course it benefits the lesser player and I don't know why people will think otherwise.

My pool hall has 4.25 pockets and it gradually gets smaller and as you move up in table numbers. I play at #1 and its already tight. I've played on others during tournament nights and the amount of hangers are crazy.

I've won and lost on many games on the 4.25 and this doesn't involve cheating the pocket like most like to say. Also there are shots eliminated from the game on just 4.25 pockets. I can only imagine how many extinct shots there are with 4'' pockets.

You can't make 90 degree shot unless you are near the object ball and pocket. Those cut shots towards the side pocket is gone. You cannot use the rail as insurance to get the ball in. Etc...etc...You're also not making a shot with heavy outside english since it will throw the ball.

 

[rexus31]

Basically this.

From the local level, the lesser player will miss by a big margin. The better player hangs the ball.

So of course it benefits the lesser player and I don't know why people will think otherwise.

My pool hall has 4.25 pockets and it gradually gets smaller and as you move up in table numbers. I play at #1 and its already tight. I've played on others during tournament nights and the amount of hangers are crazy.

I've won and lost on many games on the 4.25 and this doesn't involve cheating the pocket like most like to say. Also there are shots eliminated from the game on just 4.25 pockets. I can only imagine how many extinct shots there are with 4'' pockets.

You can't make 90 degree shot unless you are near the object ball and pocket. Those cut shots towards the side pocket is gone. You cannot use the rail as insurance to get the ball in. Etc...etc...You're also not making a shot with heavy outside english since it will throw the ball.

Again, WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT AMATEURS. The OP has stated (numerous times) he's referring to Matchroom, the WNT and the top players in the world who are all capable of snapping off an event with a world class field.

 

[The_JV]

Again, WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT AMATEURS. The OP has stated (numerous times) he's referring to Matchroom, the WNT and the top players in the world who are all capable of snapping off an event with a world class field.

thank you

 

[maha]

in both cases there are some scenarios that help the weaker player and some that will help the better player.

but overall at the top levels the top players will win the same approximate amount in tournaments.
you can devise individual scenarios where one will win a tournament or lose one because of tighter pockets but that will be the exception rather than the rule.

in actuality it is better for the sport to see underdogs get to win at times. it creates excitement which creates interest in watching.
few will watch if they knew the outcome in advance.

 

[garczar]

Totally makes sense to me. The Better player leaves hangers on the small pockets and the lesser player sweeps swoops moves in and makes the hanger...then plays safe waiting for the next hanger to cash in yet again!

And just how often does this scenario occur? Occasionally at lower levels but a the top not very often. The lower level players are still going to dog-it/lose more often regardless of pocket size.

 

[maha]

that situation above does occur more often and helps the weaker player win some games. that is a fact of tougher equipment

but it also makes if very much harder for the weaker player to run balls out, and so he misses more and leaves many more easy outs for the better player to capitalize on.

 

[rharm]

With time some of you will see it but let me remind everyone as I've seen some previous posts about a GUY going into some certain poolhall and beating bangers on his SMALL POCKETS.

This isn't about you going to a POOLHALL beating some bangers or winning local tournaments thus PROVING that you being better than them and still winning on smaller pockets therefore my theory is wrong.

I'm here SPEAKING about world class players VERSUS the top 5 ELITES.......we had top 5 elites but with these smaller pockets we completely REMOVED the TOP 5 elites and made all world class players a same. So lets just roll a dice next tournaments and pick a winner shall we? why would we bother when we completely and utterly removed what the top 5 or top 10 ELITES have worked for over the years.

And by the way just so you know even if you asked the top 5 elite players about the small pockets they'll tell you that THEY LOVE IT....do you know why? because either 1) PRIDE, or 2) just don't want to admit it....some of the elite players will never tell you they prefer bigger pockets because inside of their brains they must believe they can outshoot everybody and I'm sure they can, I'm 100% sure they can outshoot everybody this is not up for debate.

But in pool it so often happens that everybody misses we're all human even the top 5 elites right? but they probably will miss less, but will that matter? NOT 100% of the time, do you know why?

Because the top 5 elites can miss 2 times.....and the world class pro (non elite) can miss 7 times..........and YET in a race to 9 the world class pro will win, do you know why? I hate to keep repeating myself but here we go.

THE MISS ITSELF DOESNT MATTER, again for the 100 times, when somebody misses we gotta ask ourself "WHAT WILL HAPPEN AFTER THE MISS" this is so so so crucial guys, I need you to write this in a paper & the next tournament you watch when a pro player or elite player misses, I want you to keep your eyes on the cueball + object ball, because this is all on the hand of pool gods (don't bring up 2way shots alright), pros have one thing in their mind is to run out.

So again elite can miss 2 times, and pro can miss 7 times & still the non-elite will win, why? it so happens that the pool gods put every scenario after the miss into the non-elite guy and that's it.

Now you'll tell me, but its all "if if if if" well come on guys, isn't this what will happen with smaller pockets? now you might start seeing a point here, next tournament just keep all of this info in your mind when you see a fargo top5 elite player versus a new pro guy alright.

Also some of you may say "well, the miss & what happens after the miss" also happens with default sized pockets, ill tell you true but the elite pro's will miss way less that it can give the world pro player maybe one rack, but once the elites get into a good rhythm, they're 6packing it out.

Guys, you will not agree now....and I don't expect you to, but next 3.5 inch pockets you see just remember this one sentence.

When a miss <-- is not important, keep an eye on "what happens after a miss" and write it down, this will conclude the outcome of the match and your elite player is in the hand of god, sometimes they'll win if the god wants them to......which is why I am really mad at this smaller pocket change, it completely ADDED MORE LUCK....

I said it before we already are dealing with the friggin rolls of the BREAK SHOT & the layout after the break........now they added this problem by introding smaller pockets, so now you have to deal with 3 problems.

1- break shot, where will the Cueball go when kicked? we saw what happened to SVB.
2- layout after the break, all matter of luck (i can put to you a layout that 13 yr old can run, then i can put to you a layout not even SVB can run, its dumb)
3- Now new instruction of smaller pockets causing more misses which isn't a problem but main problem is the rolls/luck that are associated with "What will happen after the miss, am i gonna come out like roses or what?".

Now that's what we're dealing with.

I'd like to see a match where the elite player only misses twice and the top pro misses 7 times in a race to 9 and the top pro still wins. And it sounds like you are saying it isn't the size of the pocket but the "pool gods" that are making the difference. You also mentioned stats in one of your posts, what stats are you looking at to back up your claim that with smaller pockets, these players you've never heard of are beating the top elite

 

[smoochie]

This is awesome... So you have an ill gotten theory. Which is solely based on how the "top 5 elite" are effected by small pockets, but then completely discount the opinion of those very same players because contradicts your theory. ...and then try to explain away their opinion as nothing more than ego.

Could it be that you don't want to admit something...?

No, well.... domination is good for any sport, its really good because you got people divided into grps where they watch someone because they love him so much or they watch someone because they hate him so much... either way its so good for any sport. Removing this is a big issue for any sport leading into the reduction of viewership.

But this isn't the main issue for me, the issue is that if ITS TRUE, which I believe that it is...it only means one thing. It means that they have literally reduced the SKILL GAP between the elite and great and good....which means if there was a high skill cap between them where you could find some crazy good elites could runover some good players, this is now removed....Imagine a game with low skill gap, its bad....really really bad.

The result of this theory if proven true is only a reduction of skillcap & skill gap between players, its bad.

 

[rexus31]

No, well.... domination is good for any sport, its really good because you got people divided into grps where they watch someone because they love him so much or they watch someone because they hate him so much... either way its so good for any sport. Removing this is a big issue for any sport leading into the reduction of viewership.

Your thinking is flawed. Parity is good for any sport and actually increases viewership, especially when you are talking about a global sport like pool. The viewership is at an all time high for pro pool.

But this isn't the main issue for me, the issue is that if ITS TRUE, which I believe that it is...it only means one thing. It means that they have literally reduced the SKILL GAP between the elite and great and good....which means if there was a high skill cap between them where you could find some crazy good elites could runover some good players, this is now removed....Imagine a game with low skill gap, it's bad....really really bad.

The result of this theory if proven true is only a reduction of skillcap & skill gap between players, its bad.

There isn't a reduced skill gap, there's just more elite (as you call them) players than ever before, which again is great for pro pool.

 

[rexus31]

There are currently 50 players who have a Fargo of 800+ and only a 51 point differential between #1 (851) and #50 (800). #99 in the world is a 785 Fargo, which is only a 66 point differential from #1. The Top 100 in the world are insanely close in skill. Every single one of them is capable of winning a WNT Major. This is great for the sport!

Side note: There are only (4) 800+ Fargo players from the USA: Gorst, Van Boening, Woodward and Dechaine. The world has passed USA by.

 

[boogieman]

THE MISS ITSELF DOESNT MATTER, again for the 100 times, when somebody misses we gotta ask ourself "WHAT WILL HAPPEN AFTER THE MISS" this is so so so crucial guys, I need you to write this in a paper & the next tournament you watch when a pro player or elite player misses, I want you to keep your eyes on the cueball + object ball, because this is all on the hand of pool gods (don't bring up 2way shots alright), pros have one thing in their mind is to run out.

I will keep an eye on that.

BUT, If an elite pro isn't smart, aka they just try to run everything and never play 2 way style shots, they will lose to a slightly lesser pro who is strategic. If you EVER leave your opponent a shot, you sold the farm. You don't HAVE to leave them a shot. When in doubt leave em on the rail.

I'm super happy to see the pros embrace 1P, IMO this can only improve them at rotation games.

The elite pros aren't dummies. They know this stuff. If they choose to ignore it and shoot dumb like the rest of us mortals then they might lose. They KNOW this. The cream rises to the top. Can anyone, from a ripe beginner, to a pro guarantee a win if they let their opponent shoot? With a good safety and BIH anyone at an Open tournament should be able to run out, unless they like donating. It shouldn't be surprising when a pro meets a local hotshot and the hotshot delivers. I'm sure all of the current pros have had moments like that in a tournament when coming up. It's how they get noticed. Just like now we know about guys who we didn't even know their name 6 months ago. If they beat an elite pro, no matter what the scenario, from 5" short shelf pockets, to 3 7/8" tortuously deep sheved pockets then good for them, looks like the pro needs more practice time, maybe they should study chess and strategy rather than the break shot.

If Matchroom can keep a format for more than 6 months and stop pissing with the pocket size we will start to see domination again. It might not be the old guard but you're gonna see domination soon. We're already starting to see it.

 

[skogstokig]

No, well.... domination is good for any sport, its really good because you got people divided into grps where they watch someone because they love him so much or they watch someone because they hate him so much... either way its so good for any sport. Removing this is a big issue for any sport leading into the reduction of viewership.

But this isn't the main issue for me, the issue is that if ITS TRUE, which I believe that it is...it only means one thing. It means that they have literally reduced the SKILL GAP between the elite and great and good....which means if there was a high skill cap between them where you could find some crazy good elites could runover some good players, this is now removed....Imagine a game with low skill gap, its bad....really really bad.

The result of this theory if proven true is only a reduction of skillcap & skill gap between players, its bad.

there won't be domination no matter how you tweak the tables or format. look at the international open. that has softer tables. in the recent years albin and yapp has won. they're not top 5 players, but they're very good elite players. next iteration it's entirely plausible that say pijus labutis, mickey krause or alex kazakis wins. on their day they're well capable of beating shane or fedor, and they have done. the raised skill level and depth is a fact. also a lot of other factors come in now that pool is more global than ever, such as jetlag and suboptimal adapting to the location/tables etc. so forget domination, there's too tough competition and too many factors