Hitting cut shots with draw - why do I keep missing?

Fats_Brown_Lives

Fats_Brown_Lives

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[10/24 Edit -I have enough to move forward from this post and appreciate the helpful thoughts and tips. I'll pay it forward best I can!]

Hi all - first post. Anyone have guidance on how to hit a standard cut shot with normal back draw? I am comfortable hitting cuts and draw shots, but when I combine it - I miss at a frustrating percentage. I've researched it and scoured youtube, but no one seems to have trouble making the object ball or offer any methods different than if I were to hit center or top English.


Any thoughts/help?
 
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Here is a simple idea that works wonders, with people who are bar league players. Go out and play on 9 foot tables. A lot of your questions will be answered immediately.
You will also realize why you always get beat by "pool room guys".
Bar tables, especially the ones that are not Diamonds, make the game tremendously easier, that is a lot of the reason why bar players almost never play on 9 footers, most of them can't make 4 balls in a row.
I admit I have not been out playing for about 6 years now and it may have all changed , if it did , disregard this post, I very much doubt anything has changed since my last outing tho.
 
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I got to imagine it has something to do with the quality inconsistency of your stroke. An APA 4, is basically a beginner approaching intermediate level. One issue with these type of players is their consistency of where they strike the cue ball. Practice your stroke quality and hitting the cue ball in the center and you will get more consistent.
 
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Fats_Brown_Lives said:
Sounds like you're self aware on the impatience. I was curious about a situation and asked a simple question - does draw english affect a cut shot in a way I should account for. After running my own drills, asking my team members, internet research I was coming up short, I hoped a few people on a public forum would answer Yes/No, and maybe offer a few bits of advice to improve my game.

I've gotten several pieces of good advice and drills I can do (much more than I actually expected) and I look forward to working on it. But others like you seem offended that I would even ask. Good with the bad I guess when you turn to the internet.

Anyway - thanks to everyone that took a minute to help with my question, reading the responses has been fun and enlightening!
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Well you admitted being an APA 4, which means you are an inconsistent shooter at best, so break this down a little and do some more drills. Try the same shots repeatedly with center cue ball and give an honest assessment of makes and misses, then do the same with your draw shot that for some reason you think you need to shoot on cuts, then compare. There probably isn't a hell of a lot of differences I'd bet. I would never assume that as a APA 4 you are consistently making cuts shot without draw and consistently missing with draw. I doubt you are doing much of anything consistently.
 
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Tin Man said:
That's my two cents. In the end we both play our own games and teach our own ways.
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I don't teach... probably pretty obvious why...lol

However IF I was teaching someone then I'd follow your approach. However, that's not what is playing out here. OP wants a fast track improvement. That shortest path is the road of situational correction.

Jim Furyk has one of the worse golf swings imaginable. Still hits that ball better than <1% of the golfers in the world. Fundamental flaws can be practiced around. Maybe not to the degree of being a top pro, but there's tons of 650 players out there that make my stomach turn.

I am of the mind that any player needs to develop some understanding of cause/effect before they can be effective students.
 
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The_JV said:
I don't teach... probably pretty obvious why...lol

However IF I was teaching someone then I'd follow your approach. However, that's not what is playing out here. OP wants a fast track improvement. That shortest path is the road of situational correction.

Jim Furyk has one of the worse gold swings imaginable. Still hits that ball better than <1% of the golfers in the world. Fundamental flaws can be practiced around. Maybe not to the degree of being a top pro, but there's tons of 650 players out there that make my stomach turn.

I am of the mind that any player needs to develop some understanding of cause/effect before they can be effective students.
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I love your last sentence. That is for sure. The best advice I ever got on how to learn any shot is to miss it 100 times.

I'm with you that your first line of attack should be to hit the shot a bunch of times and try to get a feel for how to make it go in the hole. It's only if that continues to fail over a long period of time that we should go to level two and look for underlying issues. Most people try to find a short cut around the 100 misses. If a beginner said they wanted to become a great player without missing a lot along the way I'd have to sit them down and explain how learning works.

After a certain number of thousands of misses it's time to ask questions. The trick is the wisdom to know the difference.
 
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The_JV said:
I don't teach... probably pretty obvious why...lol

However IF I was teaching someone then I'd follow your approach. However, that's not what is playing out here. OP wants a fast track improvement. That shortest path is the road of situational correction.

Jim Furyk has one of the worse gold swings imaginable. Still hits that ball better than <1% of the golfers in the world. Fundamental flaws can be practiced around. Maybe not to the degree of being a top pro, but there's tons of 650 players out there that make my stomach turn.

I am of the mind that any player needs to develop some understanding of cause/effect before they can be effective students.
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*hits the ball better than all but <1% of golfers. ;)

And honestly, there is no chance in hell 1% hit the ball better than him. He's a phenomenal striker with that impossibly close figure 8 of his.
 
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Tinman is correct that knowing why a CB and OB react as they do, on draw or other shots, is important for anyone who really wants to learn the game. If you hit a shot repeatedly and miss, developing players need to know if there is a reason why. Swerve, deflection, etc.

At the same time, as The-JV insists, you simply have to shoot the shots. Over and over again.

When I got back into the game three years ago, I started with basic fundamentals. I learned to effectively use follow and center, which was easy enough, and then stun (not as easy since speed and tip position are critical).

Then I moved to clock drills. Hitting different shots repeatedly using different parts of the cueball - noon, 1:30, 3, 4:30, 6, 7:30, 9, center and stun.

What I found out was that draw gave me the most trouble. I could draw the ball 6 inches, maybe a foot. But anything after that, trouble.

For months I practiced draw. I made little progress. First I wasn't hitting the ball low enough. Then I started hitting too low and scooping. Very frustrating.

Finally I realized my stroke was at fault. Back to the drawing board.

Before the original poster can hit draw shots with spin repeatedly, he has to improve his stroke.

In my case, my bridge was often too short or too long. My grip was too tight. My backswing was too fast. The transition to my foreswing was rushed. I didn't always follow through all the way.

So my stroke was often stabby or punchy. I was usually decelerating when I hit the cue ball instead of accelerating.

Improving my stroke has eliminated these problems. A loose grip, a slight pause at the backswing and smooth acceleration have been crucial.

Now I can draw effortlessly when my CB is fairly close to the object ball, and I don't even have to use much speed. And I can even manage full-table draws when the CB is 6 feet away from the OB.

It took a lot of hard work. A few hundred hours of practice at least. But I am convinced that if players masters draw, they can master every kind of shot. Draw to me was the hardest of all.

If you master draw, draw shots with cut become a lot easier. You still have to practice them.

There are few weapons more effective than a low outside shot to get to areas of the table where no other part of the cueball can take you. Learning how to use that weapon doesn't come easy, though.
 
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WobblyStroke said:
*hits the ball better than all but <1% of golfers. ;)

And honestly, there is no chance in hell 1% hit the ball better than him. He's a phenomenal striker with that impossibly close figure 8 of his.
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Furyk is #4 on the all-time PGA money leader list. You'd have to have a lot of zeroes to the right of the decimal point to calculate where he ranks as a percentage of golfers.
 
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Patrick Johnson said:
Even better/quicker with knowledge of the physical facts.

pj
chgo
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Spot on. So many people learning things are held back by poor conceptual understanding as much as if not more than their lack of experience.

Take beginner golfers as an example: the intuitive way to use a golf club by getting under the ball to help it up and how it actually works are quite different. You save a lot of strokes--years-worth even--by getting some basic facts right so you understand what you should even be trying to do.
 
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Patrick Johnson said:
Even better/quicker with knowledge of the physical facts.

pj
chgo
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says you... ;)

But where does it end...?

Ok lets pretend that the OP (this is hypothetical Mr. OP) has flawless mechanics, so we can discount steering and a host of other pitfalls when hitting with draw. ...and it is indeed some element of draw on the CB that is throwing his cut shot thick. Ok, he's read that here at AZB and learnt that he needs to cut it more when hitting draw, but how much..?. Yep, it changes based on how thin the cut is, how hard his hit it, and how much action he's placed on the CB.

Whereas rather than burning that time. He hits a ball, ...undoubtedly thick. Then hits another one a little thinner. Still miss..?.., over compensate..?..., bury it in the heart...? Regardless, it shouldn't take more than a few strikes to dial it in that specific shot. Not gain consistency mind you, but no amount of reading online will help you there. Not sure how much time your expecting to trim off a couple of minutes by researching on the internet, but you should probably factor in that research time to how long it took to achieve success. The bonus with the practice method...?..., he now has a tangible baseline to adjust from when he attempts something more/less extreme.

Not claiming the physical facts won't help. Just that they aren't overly beneficial to those cutting their teeth. Time better spent on the table.
 
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The_JV said:
says you... ;)

But where does it end...?

Ok lets pretend that the OP (this is hypothetical Mr. OP) has flawless mechanics, so we can discount steering and a host of other pitfalls when hitting with draw. ...and it is indeed some element of draw on the CB that is throwing his cut shot thick. Ok, he's read that here at AZB and learnt that he needs to cut it more when hitting draw, but how much..?. Yep, it changes based on how thin the cut is, how hard his hit it, and how much action he's placed on the CB.

Whereas rather than burning that time. He hits a ball, ...undoubtedly thick. Then hits another one a little thinner. Still miss..?.., over compensate..?..., bury it in the heart...? Regardless, it shouldn't take more than a few strikes to dial it in that specific shot. Not gain consistency mind you, but no amount of reading online will help you there. Not sure how much time your expecting to trim off a couple of minutes by researching on the internet, but you should probably factor in that research time to how long it took to achieve success. The bonus with the practice method...?..., he now has a tangible baseline to adjust from when he attempts something more/less extreme.

Not claiming the physical facts won't help. Just that they aren't overly beneficial to those cutting their teeth. Time better spent on the table.
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JV, you have created a hypothetical situation custom made to support your point of view. You've made the assumption that he has flawless mechanics, doesn't steer, and abandons his practice after a handful of attempts to seek out a shortcut online. This is a laughable hypothetical.

A safer assumption is that he doesn't have perfect mechanics, he is prone to making steering errors that nearly all players make, and that he has pounded his head against the wall for a long time before finally wondering what the heck is going on and why he has such a hard time.

I am a gambling man and would bet money that the problem is that he doesn't really understand what the limits of draw are on a thinner cut, and that by picturing getting the cue ball to go in a direction it won't go if he pockets the ball he is inadvertently adjusting his aim thicker to play the cue ball. And that it might help to understand that the solve is to 1) Learn the limits of angled draw so you are not trying to shoot an impossible positional shot that requires missing thick to achieve, and 2) Learning to implement a pocketing gut check (as you say) prior to pulling the trigger, as opposed to getting the aim down, and then allowing yourself to adjust to play the cue ball.

Again, I don't have a problem with the idea that you have to use experience and feel to a large degree playing pool, but your example was so far fetched it provoked a reply. All of this said I do appreciate you being a cautionary voice for those who get too analytical and fall out of balance the other direction.
 
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Realistically, it's hard for many people to practice regularly without owning a table. Obvious, I know. But I hardly see anyone practicing at my pool hall unless they have no one else to play with. It can be expensive to practice!

I have a 7-ft table because it is all I can fit for now, but at least I can practice any thing any time I want.
 
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Tin Man said:
JV, you have created a hypothetical situation custom made to support your point of view. You've made the assumption that he has flawless mechanics, doesn't steer, and abandons his practice after a handful of attempts to seek out a shortcut online. This is a laughable hypothetical.

A safer assumption is that he doesn't have perfect mechanics, he is prone to making steering errors that nearly all players make, and that he has pounded his head against the wall for a long time before finally wondering what the heck is going on and why he has such a hard time.
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Well of course I have... The only other possibility is what you're suggesting. Which is nearly a certainty and something that, dare I say, can't be corrected via online forum. So why do I go to such an extreme..? because if we open the door to anything other than what he is suggesting himself. Then the only reasonable reply to the question is, "find and use a good instructor". That's not overly helpful imo. Some may not approve of my delivery method, but I still think short term success can be found via conscious effort at the table.
 
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Tin Man said:
A safer assumption is that he doesn't have perfect mechanics, he is prone to making steering errors that nearly all players make, and that he has pounded his head against the wall for a long time before finally wondering what the heck is going on and why he has such a hard time.
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Ay, stop talking about me . . .
 
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The_JV said:
Well of course I have... The only other possibility is what you're suggesting. Which is nearly a certainty and something that, dare I say, can't be corrected via online forum. So why do I go to such an extreme..? because if we open the door to anything other than what he is suggesting himself. Then the only reasonable reply to the question is, "find and use a good instructor". That's not overly helpful imo. Some may not approve of my delivery method, but I still think short term success can be found via conscious effort at the table.
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It's refreshing to chat with you. Most people online get so escalated they stop making any sense. Even when we are going back and forth you always seem reasonable. I appreciate that.

We're probably really, really close on how we see this. I guess the only question is whether knowledge conveyed through an online forum can be beneficial in a case like this. And then, even if it isn't, the follow up question is whether it can hurt to try.

If it isn't beneficial I can see how it could hurt to try, because time and energy spent looking for a shortcut to a little elbow grease is wasted. So I do think this is a super valid warning.

I've just seen enough steering with thick hits over the last few years that I think being aware of this tendency is useful. It's something most people don't notice, and when they do it is eye opening. If a coach came to you and told you that out of your last 100 misses on a certain shot, 93 of them had been hit thick, that information might be a wake up call. Knowing how you tend to dog a shot (and why!) can be useful because you can get up there and make sure you don't feel like you're making that mistake before you pull the trigger. So I thought maybe some online discussion could help.

But who knows? The proof, as always, in the pudding. Maybe between us I derailed a couple of guys that should just work on putting it in the hole and you steered a couple of guys away from info they needed. :unsure:

Good ol' AZB. Thanks JV.
 
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