GOAT Hunt

Badpenguin

Badpenguin

Well-known member
Someone mentioned that Joshua Filler is in the conversation of being the best rotation player in history. This got me wondering, could you quantify that? Maybe the most basic metric would be to compare players' number of wins of major tournaments.

I have started a list that includes more than just rotation game tournaments, to try quantifying the best players of all games. The list includes plenty of rotation game tournaments as well. I'm not saying this will be the definitive way to claim someone is a best player in history, I don't even know if that is possible.

Anyway, that being said, should any of these tournaments not be considered? Any tournaments that I'm missing that should be considered?

All Japan Championship
American 14.1 Straight Pool Championship
China 9-Ball Open
Derby City Classic Bank Pool
Derby City Classic Bigfoot
Derby City Classic Nine Ball
Derby City Classic One Pocket
European Pool Championship 8 Ball
European Pool Championship 9 Ball
European Pool Championship 10 Ball
European Pool Championship Straight Pool
Japan Open
Mosconi MVP
Texas Open
UK Open 9 Ball
US Open 8 Ball
US Open 9 Ball
US Open 10 Ball
US Open Bank Pool
US Open One Pocket
US Open Straight Pool Championship
World 10 Ball
World 8 Ball
World 9 Ball
World Games 9 Ball
World Pool Masters
 
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Hope you're not suggesting that because they have won fewer titles than the guys like Sigel, Varner, Strickland, Souquet and SVB won by age 40, no young player can be in the conversation for best ever, for that would be ridiculous.

Gorst may have the best resume of any 24-year-old that ever played. Filler may have the best resume of any 27-year-old that ever played.

US Open 8ball, 10 ball, bank pool, one pocket and 14.1 are not even close to being majors. Qatar Open is missing and Euro-tour events are just about as hard to win as most of the majors and I'd include World Cup of Pool. Still, you did a pretty good job with your list.

It's possible Ralf Souquet, with one of the longest resumes in pool history, will land at #1 based on your criteria.
 
sjm said:
Hope you're not suggesting that because they have won fewer titles than the guys like Sigel, Varner, Strickland, Souquet and SVB won by age 40, no young player can be in the conversation for best ever, for that would be ridiculous.

Gorst may have the best resume of any 24-year-old that ever played. Filler may have the best resume of any 27-year-old that ever played.

US Open 8ball, 10 ball, bank pool, one pocket and 14.1 are not even close to being majors. Qatar Open is missing and Euro-tour events are just about as hard to win as most of the majors and I'd include World Cup of Pool. Still, you did a pretty good job with your list.

It's possible Ralf Souquet, with one of the longest resumes in pool history, will land at #1 based on your criteria.
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I'm going back to 1974, so it includes those guys. At least, with the data I can find.
 
So far, using wins in the tournaments listed above starting in 1974 (first year of Texas Open, records start earlier for US Open Straight Pool but they are mostly irrelevant).

Sorted by total number of wins in all game types:

AllRotation
Shane Van Boening3522
Ralf Souquet3318
Joshua Filler2217
Niels Feijen2111
Dennis Orcollo177
Oliver Ortmann177
Fedor Gorst168
Efren Reyes124
Earl Strickland1010
Mika Immonen108

Sorted by number of wins in rotation games only:

AllRotation
Shane Van Boening3522
Ralf Souquet3318
Joshua Filler2217
Niels Feijen2111
Earl Strickland1010
Fedor Gorst168
Mika Immonen108
Bob Vanover88
Ko Pin-yi88
Dennis Orcollo177
 
Great lists. Legends of the game. Of the twenty listed, only Vanover is neither a BCA Hall of Famer nor a lock for future induction.

I knew Souquet, whose prolific achievements are too often overlooked in GOAT discussions, would rank very high. Ralf may have been the first that was truly committed to playing the entire World Pool Calendar, and guys like SVB, Filler, Ouschan, Hohmann, Feijen, Orcullo and Gorst have definitely walked in Ralf's giant footsteps in that regard.

Thanks for doing the legwork in putting these lists together.

PS The Sands Regency in Reno was a major of the very highest order and would rank above about half of the events listed in importance.
 
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None of this affects most people who enjoy playing Pool for fun, or League Player. Most have no idea who The Professor was, who
Cowboy Jimmy Moore was, or who cornbread Red was. Mention to them the game call One Pocket, they for most part will say what.

I would say the group of is important to Pool, they buy equipment, they play League, and here Room n Bar owner pay the bill monthly. JMHO
 
sjm said:
''US Open 8ball, 10 ball, bank pool, one pocket and 14.1 are not even close to being majors.''
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The same Pro's play in all the same tournaments so why isn't the US Open 8Ball, 10 Ball or One Pocket considered majors?
 
King T said:
The same Pro's play in all the same tournaments so why isn't the US Open 8Ball, 10 Ball or One Pocket considered majors?
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Not accurate. In many years, these events had small fields, as small as thirteen in one case. It is not accurate to say that the overseas-based players have customarily played in these events more than occasionally. In most years, it has been just the opposite.
 
maybe the world 14.1 championship should be in? it was a good event. it later lost its sanctioning and became "world tournament"
 
sjm said:
Great lists. Legends of the game. Of the twenty listed, only Vanover is neither a BCA Hall of Famer nor a lock for future induction.

I knew Souquet, whose prolific achievements are too often overlooked in GOAT discussions, would rank very high. Ralf may have been the first that was truly committed to playing the entire World Pool Calendar, and guys like SVB, Filler, Ouschan, Hohmann, Feijen, Orcullo and Gorst have definitely walked in Ralf's giant footsteps in that regard.

Thanks for doing the legwork in putting these lists together.

PS The Sands Regency in Reno was a major of the very highest order and would rank above about half of the events listed in importance.
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I agree with Ralf being often overlooked in GOAT discussion. He is the most decorated player in European Championships with 20 European titles. It's mind-boggling that Ralf played in 12 consecutive 8-ball EC finals from 1989 to 2000 and won 8 of them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Pool_Championships

The column reads year, venue, winner and runner-up.
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As far as all of the US Opens, do they not loosely compare to the European Opens? I am shooting for a fair sampling from both the US and Europe.

Ralf appears to have been severely overlooked in a lot of these discussions.
straightline said:
Any specific qualifications besides beats everybody more?
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Feel free to recommend other measurable ways to qualify.
 
Badpenguin said:
As far as all of the US Opens, do they not loosely compare to the European Opens? I am shooting for a fair sampling from both the US and Europe.

Ralf appears to have been severely overlooked in a lot of these discussions.

Feel free to recommend other measurable ways to qualify.
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the griffs US opens now are more like turning stone in status, i'm thinking. BUT there was a US open 14.1 in 2000 that was a big deal. ralf won. there are some matches on youtube, and lou figuoera re-posted a tournament report on it on here some year ago.

that's another problem when comparing eras, some tournaments pops up and goes away. like the IPT, which arguably was a big notch in efren's tournament career
 
These 'best of all time' lists, in any sport, are imo a waste of time. You can only be the best in your career/era and trying to compare one to another is fun forum fodder(say that fast three times) but really means nada. All that being said, just based on his age filler could easily lap everyone on that list and set a career win target that would be tough to beat. Generational talent for sure. Still think he needs to grow up.
 
garczar said:
These 'best of all time' lists, in any sport, are imo a waste of time. You can only be the best in your career/era and trying to compare one to another is fun forum fodder(say that fast three times) but really means nada. All that being said, just based on his age filler could easily lap everyone on that list and set a career win target that would be tough to beat. Generational talent for sure. Still think he needs to grow up.
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Yes, it all has to be taken with a huge grain of salt. For one thing, there were far fewer tournaments 20 years ago. Mosconi, for example, only had one major tournament a year that counted. I look forward to the day that our sport has a consistent history of measurable stats. We might be seeing the beginnings of it right now.
 
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