Miscue Limit

[nataddrho]

What's the optimum cue incline for draw?

Technically, spin-wise, that would be 90 degrees, perpendicular to the table. A masse. The reason is that at least some friction of the ball against the cloth adds to the inertial resistance of what would otherwise just be the ball itself plus gravity.

 

[straightline]

Technically, spin-wise, that would be 90 degrees, perpendicular to the table. A masse. The reason is that at least some friction of the ball against the cloth adds to the inertial resistance of what would otherwise just be the ball itself plus gravity.

Ok. What about standard draw shots in terms of back spin vs forward motion and any, even microscopic, aerial action.

 

[Island Drive]

Where do you get the most English on the cue ball in relation to the miscue line? Does that change with the horizontal or vertical or diagonal point of cue contact?

On the horizontal and vertical plane strike areas.
9 - 3 and 12 - 6.
The more outward the more spin, when your at that borderline slippage/miscue outward area, then lessening of transfer begins.
Spin transfer to create obj ball direction change increases as cb speed diminishes.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

We can hit further out with parallel english than back hand english with front hand english falling between the two. However we get less effect with parallel english than either front or back hand english and less effect with front hand english than back hand english.

"Front hand" and "back hand" are just different ways to estimate the cue angle you need to correct for squirt, compared with the direction you want the cue ball to go.

The physics of hitting the cue ball for maximum spin don't change with the squirt-correcting angle - the miscue limit is always halfway from center ball as viewed from the shooter’s position (along the cue ball’s intended direction).

pj
chgo

 

[maha]

Patrick,,,,,

has anyone patrick did any study on the maximum spin and miscue limit depending on shape of tip and where on your tip you actually contact that limit. in other words is it a fixed point on the ball or does it or can you change it in practice.
along with the polishing of balls and how that moves the miscue limit or does it. and how much.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Patrick,,,,,

has anyone patrick did any study on the maximum spin and miscue limit depending on shape of tip and where on your tip you actually contact that limit. in other words is it a fixed point on the ball or does it or can you change it in practice.
along with the polishing of balls and how that moves the miscue limit or does it. and how much.

The tip's surface can only contact the cue ball where the tip's surface and the ball's surface are parallel - otherwise contact is made on the tip's edge, which is prone to miscueing. The curvature of the tip needs to include an arc of at least 60 degrees in order to hit the cue ball all the way at the miscue limit without hitting on the tip's edge - this means the tip's curvature radius shouldn't be greater than the tip's diameter.

pj
chgo

 

[ShootingArts]

"Front hand" and "back hand" are just different ways to estimate the cue angle you need to correct for squirt, compared with the direction you want the cue ball to go.

The physics of hitting the cue ball for maximum spin don't change with the squirt-correcting angle - the miscue limit is always halfway from center ball as if you're using "parallel" english, i.e., as viewed from straight along the squirt-corrected cue.

pj
chgo

I am only concerned with the shooter's viewpoint. From the shooter's viewpoint the distance from center varies a little with backhand english letting you go the least furthest out and parallel english the most with front hand english in between but closer to parallel english than backhand. The lines of force through the cue ball vary and that determines miscue limits.

With all the testing, I have never seen anything saying which english can give the most spin. I think due to compensating factors that they work out very close to the same but I have never seen proof that is right or wrong.

Hu

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I am only concerned with the shooter's viewpoint.

Me too - I edited my post to be more clear about that.

From the shooter's viewpoint the distance from center varies a little with backhand english letting you go the least furthest out and parallel english the most with front hand english in between but closer to parallel english than backhand. The lines of force through the cue ball vary and that determines miscue limits.

If you use the squirt compensating technique that’s correct for your cue (fronthand, backhand or in between), then the line of force is, by definition, parallel with the cue ball’s intended path - so no spin advantage/disadvantage for either. (I don’t know what’s meant by “parallel” - no squirt compensation? Because of swerve?)

pj
chgo

 

[ShootingArts]

Me too - I edited my post to be more clear about that.


If you use the squirt compensating technique that’s correct for your cue (fronthand, backhand or in between), then the line of force is, by definition, parallel with the cue ball’s intended path - so no spin advantage/disadvantage for either. (I don’t know what’s meant by “parallel” - no squirt compensation? Because of swerve?)

pj
chgo

We have ran the rabbit about parallel english at least a half dozen times already. I think you know exactly what I mean. If not, search is your friend. Parallel is parallel offset if that jogs your memory if not you are on your own.(grin)

The issue with squirt compensation is that you can't always bridge where you choose. I prefer to learn how to deal with it. I use parallel english from long habit and experience but quite like front hand english too. Of course with my liking of speed and angles above all but the slightest side I don't use enough side to worry about most of the time.

Hu

 

[Patrick Johnson]

We have ran the rabbit about parallel english at least a half dozen times already. I think you know exactly what I mean. If not, search is your friend. Parallel is parallel offset if that jogs your memory if not you are on your own.(grin)

The issue with squirt compensation is that you can't always bridge where you choose. I prefer to learn how to deal with it. I use parallel english from long habit and experience but quite like front hand english too. Of course with my liking of speed and angles above all but the slightest side I don't use enough side to worry about most of the time.

Hu

So parallel means “adjusted for squirt/swerve by feel”? That’s how I do it - but I don’t call it “parallel” because it’s not parallel with anything that I know of.

pj
chgo

 

[ShootingArts]

So parallel means “adjusted for squirt/swerve by feel”? That’s how I do it - but I don’t call it “parallel” because it’s not parallel with anything that I know of.

pj
chgo

Take a nice nap, give your brain a rest. Then use search.

Hu

 

[Mensabum]

You will need to establish your limit for yourself... Corey Deuel did a draw test several years ago at SBE in front of about 70 people. He used his notebook to limit how low he was going and turned pages until he miscued with Master and then he wiped the tip off and continued with Kamui and established Kamui had a larger offset where it did not miscue. That being said your limit will be established by your stroke accuracy, tip and chalk choice and chalk habits... It takes about a month to retrain your subconscious if you actively work on it. Otherwie your subconscious will just correct your stroke to be within it's current miscue programmed limit. It does not want you jumping the cueball off the table and embarassing yourself....... Try it for yourself... Place a dot lower than you normally hit and try and hit it... First time I tried it I worked for about an hour before my brain jailbroke.....

Idk about switching the chalk part, but the drill sounds promising for those trying to expand their range.

 

[maha]

pat, you line your shot up for no english and then move your cue over in a straight line parallel to your first one same as if you lined up parallel with a straight in shot but off to the side.

but for most out there if you play enough you just automatically aim correctly for any cue ball deviation.
just like walking up the stairs you dont look at every step after you get past age 5 or 6.

if a person tries to make pool mechanical he will never get past a weak B player.

 

[Paul_#_]

We have ran the rabbit about parallel english at least a half dozen times already. I think you know exactly what I mean. If not, search is your friend.

My search found an earlier discussion at
https://forums.azbilliards.com/threads/the-use-of-bhe-fhe-theory.565495/page-5#post-7843378
and therein:

With BHE or FHE, there is the added factor of a constantly changing angle striking the cue ball. With parallel shift the angle stays the same. One less variable. Maximum spin contact point is a little easier to judge with parallel shift, just because of the position of our eyes when shooting.

The contact point on the cue ball can be slightly further out with parallel shift than it can be with either BHE or FHE. I have never seen this proven as an advantage, or disproven. I suspect that the biggest deciding factor on how much spin we can apply is the "grip" for lack of a better word between the cue ball and table cloth. Since that doesn't change, I suspect that the other factors offset each other and to a level far closer than we are capable of judging on a table, the amount of spin that can be put on a cue ball by all methods is basically equal. I know of no tests determining this and have done no significant testing myself so it remains a wag or swag.

I have used a parallel shift most extensively, BHE for long enough periods to be familiar with it, years total, and I have experimented with FHE and combinations of any two. Just being silly I have used all three on one shot! FHE, BHE, and Parallel offset. It works but lordy what a cobbled up mess! I shot with front hand english for about three weeks playing daily. It is superior to back hand english in my opinion, less stick angle.

I can say these things as my opinion or as what I have found. I would like to set up the same repeatability as my old test lab and flog these things but in the end I would be just satisfying curiosity as I know that no form of english offers a huge advantage, well, according to what I have found.

 

[Kim Bye]

For most sets of pool balls: Get a stripe. Put the stripe vertical and aligned towards you. You should be able to hit anywhere on the stripe and not miscue (Edit: for hits on the equator -- no follow or draw). Put the stripe horizontal and that will tell you how far you can hit down on the ball.

(This varies a little with the design of the ball and the kind of chalk you use, but not a lot.)

That's been my advice for years, makes really easy to visualize and for many players they are surprised that the miscue limit isn't further out from center.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

We have ran the rabbit about parallel english at least a half dozen times already. I think you know exactly what I mean.

My search found an earlier discussion at
https://forums.azbilliards.com/threads/the-use-of-bhe-fhe-theory.565495/page-5#post-7843378

Here's a relevant quote:

ShootingArts:
With BHE or FHE, there is the added factor of a constantly changing angle striking the cue ball. With parallel shift the angle stays the same. One less variable.

Maybe I misunderstand you, but... no matter what you call it, even with the same stick, the cue's squirt-compensation angle changes with every change in spin amount (and is almost never parallel with the cue ball's shot direction).

pj
chgo

 

[ShootingArts]

My search found an earlier discussion at
https://forums.azbilliards.com/threads/the-use-of-bhe-fhe-theory.565495/page-5#post-7843378
and therein:

My search found an earlier discussion at
https://forums.azbilliards.com/threads/the-use-of-bhe-fhe-theory.565495/page-5#post-7843378
and therein:

Thank you Paul! I do appreciate your efforts. The game of PJ "not understanding" what I mean by parallel english has been going on for well over a decade now, maybe two. I'm sure he will continue to claim he doesn't know what it is in the future. The only thing I have every heard making a parallel shift to apply side spin be it before or after putting the bridge down. After half a century of using it, I make the shift and corrections before placing the bridge.

Never stayed with it long enough to make it the go to thing but I liked how front hand english worked on the table. I may work with it again when I find a local table for no good reason at all but the pleasure of working with a change. I have noticed that almost everyone plays pool on the peter principle, we reach our level of incompetence then all moves although they may seem to give immediate improvement soon turn out to be a lateral movement.

Hu

 

[Patrick Johnson]

The game of PJ "not understanding" what I mean by parallel english has been going on for well over a decade now, maybe two.

Maybe that has something to do with calling it the one thing it can’t be: “parallel”. But since you don’t seem to care whether you’re understood or not, keep on doing you and I’ll just have to keep pointing out the confusing terminology for other readers.

pj
chgo