Van Boening vs. Gorst 10-Ball Race to 120, Rematch June 2025 -- General Comments Thread

sjm said:
I've got to disagree here. If SVB had a hair less natural talent than an Earl, Efren, Pagulayan, Sigel, Filler, Gorst or Varner, he still qualifies as having had very elite level talent. As you note, he has worked his tail off for everything he has accomplished, but to be fair, Sigel and Earl were comparable practice room workaholics, and Filler and Gorst are picking things up where SVB, Earl and Sigel left off.

Still, you are right in the area of the break. Nobody has ever worked as hard on their break as SVB, and I wonder whether anyone ever will. His formula was always to beat opponents by parking them in the chair for racks at a time, thereby avoiding those racks in which control of the table had to be fought for. Today's far tougher breaking rules and tighter pockets have made defensive and tactical play much more important than they were ten years ago, as putting packages together in major tournament play has become much more difficult.


My take is that SVB is a role model for all developing players. He has shown how much work ethic and passion are needed to become a generational player. He raised the bar in the 2010s the way Gorst and Filler are raising it in the 2020s and I am convinced that his excellence figured in pushing both of them to their highest level.

I can only think of two other players that displayed as much love for the game as SVB, and they are Efren Reyes and Jeanette Lee. Love of the game has been a big part of SVB's winning recipe for greatness.

Another thing I have noticed and love about SVB, that his fellow pros should pay attention to, is how serious he is when he is warming up. In this sense, he reminds me of Efren Reyes and Allison Fisher, both of whom were all business as they warmed up for a match.

At very least, SVB is in the conversation for best ever American 9ball player, along with Lassiter, Sigel and Strickland. All who pursue excellence over the glorious green felt should follow and be inspired by his
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In my mind he’s the best American player ever,and in his prime would be the favorite over any current or past player in any game except 14.1 and 1 pocket
 
sjm said:
I've got to disagree here. If SVB had a hair less natural talent than an Earl, Efren, Pagulayan, Sigel, Filler, Gorst or Varner, he still qualifies as having had very elite level talent. As you note, he has worked his tail off for everything he has accomplished, but to be fair, Sigel and Earl were comparable practice room workaholics, and Filler and Gorst are picking things up where SVB, Earl and Sigel left off.

Still, you are right in the area of the break. Nobody has ever worked as hard on their break as SVB, and I wonder whether anyone ever will. His formula was always to beat opponents by parking them in the chair for racks at a time, thereby avoiding those racks in which control of the table had to be fought for. Today's far tougher breaking rules and tighter pockets have made defensive and tactical play much more important than they were ten years ago, as putting packages together in major tournament play has become much more difficult.


My take is that SVB is a role model for all developing players. He has shown how much work ethic and passion are needed to become a generational player. He raised the bar in the 2010s the way Gorst and Filler are raising it in the 2020s and I am convinced that his excellence figured in pushing both of them to their highest level.

I can only think of two other players that displayed as much love for the game as SVB, and they are Efren Reyes and Jeanette Lee. Love of the game has been a big part of SVB's winning recipe for greatness.

Another thing I have noticed and love about SVB, that his fellow pros should pay attention to, is how serious he is when he is warming up. In this sense, he reminds me of Efren Reyes and Allison Fisher, both of whom were all business as they warmed up for a match.

At very least, SVB is in the conversation for best ever American 9ball player, along with Lassiter, Sigel and Strickland. All who pursue excellence over the glorious green felt should follow and be inspired by his example.
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SJM, can you please point me to a setting in AZB that allows me to automatically and instantaneously issue a "like" for each of your posts? Doing this manually each time is getting to be a hassle.
 
Frosty said:
You’re entitled to your opinion, if you saw him play I’m sure you’d think differently.
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And so are you. There’s a single video of him playing on YouTube, and I didn’t see anything special. Do you know of other videos I could see that would change my mind?
 
How come we never see someone like Carlo Biado, other top filipino players, Shaw or even Bergman challenged to these long sets? are they just not into these things?

And I'm asking because all I ever see if guys like Shane and Fedor doing these boring sets.
 
8intheside said:
He was playing in the 50s through the 70s. They did have video cameras back then 🙄
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Worst was a world champion billiards player, but his career as a pool player lasted just from 1963-65. He was ill and died in 1966. If all cue-sports are included in the conversation, he is about as legendary as it gets.

When guys like Jay Helfert tell me that he was, more or less, Luther Lassiter's equal at pool, that carries a lot of weight with me. BCA Hall of Famer Eddie Kelly said something similar about Worst. That said, however, I agree with those who suggest that Worst's pool career was too short to merit mention with the all-time greats. He is one of pool's saddest "what might have been" stories, but the quality of play that he displayed is rightly celebrated.
 
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skogstokig said:
sure, he broke better, obviously. but even that was not better than shane's percentage last year. this was a bad showing by svb, but i don't get the career obituaries over a lost set, lol. let them tee it up again
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Almost no chance these two run it back, but I agree his career his far from over.
 
Positively Ralf said:
How come we never see someone like Carlo Biado, other top filipino players, Shaw or even Bergman challenged to these long sets? are they just not into these things?

And I'm asking because all I ever see if guys like Shane and Fedor doing these boring sets.
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I believe Shaw played marathon races against both Bergman and Orcullo, losing both if memory serves.

The long race is a novelty, not a tradition, and is a test of endurance as much as a test of excellence.

Despite the outlier that was Reyes vs Strickland over 25 years ago, it can be argued that SVB invented the long race and has probably participated in over half of the long races ever played. Has there ever been a race to 100+ not involving SVB that was contested outside of the United States? I cannot think of one. The long race is, more or less, an American thing.

I've always found it hard to understand why any of the players are into these marathon races and have never been puzzled by the fact that most are not.
 
sjm said:
The level has gone through the roof. Today's best run out on 4" pockets every bit as well as the last generation of players did on 4 1/2" pockets. It is just plain scary how straight the top few shoot these days.
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I have to wonder how much of that is the more accurate cues, more accurate cloth, lower nap cloth and simply getting used to playing on tighter pockets. I certainly don't know.

With some of the high deflection cues and rugs they used to play with years ago even the slightest accidental English (which even happens to pros often enough to matter) or cue elevation a shot that goes in now could be a miss then due to unwanted deflection or swerve - not to mention the greater adjustments you had to make even when the English was on purpose.

I don't doubt the best players are more accurate now, but I suspect the gap is not as large as it looks. I rarely play now, but when I do, I play on a rug cloth with an old high deflection cue. I miss enough shots that I used to be 98% on in the past to know it's not all decline on my part. Give me a new predator and brand new high quality cloth and my pocketing will go up even if the pockets are tougher than in my peak days.
 
Positively Ralf said:
How come we never see someone like Carlo Biado, other top filipino players, Shaw or even Bergman challenged to these long sets? are they just not into these things?

And I'm asking because all I ever see if guys like Shane and Fedor doing these boring sets.
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fedor played carlo some 2-3 years ago, the result not much different from this. same location too iirc.

last time i saw carlo gamble outside the philippines was when he beat reyito in last pocket 8-ball after last years derby. carlo's not hesitant to match up
 
Wayne Crimi said:
I have to wonder how much of that is the more accurate cues, more accurate cloth, lower nap cloth and simply getting used to playing on tighter pockets. I certainly don't know.

With some of the high deflection cues and rugs they used to play with years ago even the slightest accidental English (which even happens to pros often enough to matter) or cue elevation a shot that goes in now could be a miss then due to unwanted deflection or swerve - not to mention the greater adjustments you had to make even when the English was on purpose.

I don't doubt the best players are more accurate now, but I suspect the gap is not as large as it looks. I rarely play now, but when I do, I play on a rug cloth with an old high deflection cue. I miss enough shots that I used to be 98% on in the past to know it's not all decline on my part. Give me a new predator and brand new high quality cloth and my pocketing will go up even if the pockets are tougher than in my peak days.
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There's much wisdom in this post.

Playing conditions haven't changed much in the past twenty years and I'm not convinced that the equipment has advanced very far, either, but to compare the players of this generation to those that played alongside Earl, Sigel, Varner, and Hall is a bit problematic because the game itself has changed.

Last November, Mike Sigel and I had a chat about how the stroke needed to succeed today is different than what was needed some forty years ago. He noted that the short, compact stroke that is in vogue today reminds him of that of Allen Hopkins in his prime. I think that equipment has evolved to suit the players (and strokes) of this generation, and that the equipment of forty years ago was perfect for that generation of players.

All that said, your premise is correct. Ultimately, the comparison across generations is almost impossible, and in the end, excellence can only be measured in the context of how any player performs against his/her contemporaries.

Thanks for your input.
 
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sjm said:
Worst was a world champion billiards player, but his career as a pool player lasted just from 1963-65. He was ill and died in 1966. If all cue-sports are included in the conversation, he is about as legendary as it gets.

When guys like Jay Helfert tell me that he was, more or less, Luther Lassiter's equal at pool, that carries a lot of weight with me. BCA Hall of Famer Eddie Kelly said something similar about Worst. That said, however, I agree with those who suggest that Worst's pool career was too short to merit mention with the all-time greats. He is one of pool's saddest "what might have been" stories, but the quality of play that he displayed is rightly celebrated.
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Worst played in a tournament held at the Michigan State Fairgrounds in either '63 or '64. I attended all three days of the tournament, but I was young and didn't have much experience for judging player levels. Throughout each day, Luther Lassiter and Minnesota Fats did trick shot exhibitions but neither competed in the tournament itself. I believe the events were 14.1, Snooker, and Nine-Ball, with Worst definitely winning either two of the events or all three - I don't remember. I don't know how many top-level pros participated in the tournament but in any event, Worst was the dominant player across the spread of games.

Worth adding, uptairs in a non-tournament section of the building was an action room where a lot of 1-pocket was being played. I watched Cornbread Red playing some - he had a backer with what appeared to be a huge wad of money, I didnt know who he was playing.

If there's "Thousands of videos" from that time frame I've only ever found on YouTube 1 or 2 with Harold Worst, as the gentlemen above mentioned, but I would love to watch more if anyone can find them. I think I shared this story on this thread a couple of years ago, but to honor Mr. Worst I thought I would add it again.
 
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DKB said:
Worst played in a tournament held at the Michigan State Fairgrounds in either '63 or '64. I attended all three days of the tournament, but I was young and didn't have much experience for judging player levels. Throughout each day, Luther Lassiter and Minnesota Fats did trick shot exhibitions but neither competed in the tournament itself. I believe the events were 14.1, Snooker, and Nine-Ball, with Worst definitely winning either two of the events or all three - I don't remember. I don't know how many top-level pros participated in the tournament but in any event, Worst was the dominant player across the spread of games.

Worth adding, uptairs in a non-tournament section of the building was an action room where a lot of 1-pocket was being played. I watched Cornbread Red playing some - he had a backer with what appeared to be a huge wad of money, I didnt know who he was playing.

If there's "Thousands of videos" from that time frame I've only ever found 1 or 2 with Harold Worst, as the gentlemen above mentioned but I would love to watch more if anyone can find them. I think I shared this story on this thread a couple of years ago, but to honor Mr. Worst I thought I would add it again.
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You are a lucky man to have seen Worst live. I did not attend my first pro event until 1976, so it's before my time.
 
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Positively Ralf said:
How come we never see someone like Carlo Biado, other top filipino players, Shaw or even Bergman challenged to these long sets? are they just not into these things?

And I'm asking because all I ever see if guys like Shane and Fedor doing these boring sets.
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It's so easy to not watch- you literally have to do nothing
 
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