What do you think would happen if there were no handicaps, in any leagues or tournaments, and all tournaments were Open to all skill levels?

I played a lot in the late 80's and never heard of handicaps... I never played for more than 20 either. In my home town, you just played... Fast forward to about 5 years ago and I joined a league with handicaps and I won matches against players that were obviously better than me... I just don't like it. I have started telling the TD to set my handicap to the max. I often go 2 and out but when I win, I know that it was because I shot better that night.
So I don't care if there are handicaps or not.
Billy
 
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MitchAlsup said:
How would you like to:
a) play against Jack Niklaus in his prime ?
b) drive against Michael Schumacher in his prime ?
c) Basket ball against Pistol Pete in his prime ?
d) Baseball against Pete Rose in his prime ?

Yeah, I though so.
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I'd love it if I liked our completed in any of those sports.

I used to play competitive foosball and for a couple of years Tony Spredeman (look him up) came to our weekly tourneys. He was only #3 in the world then, tho.
 
MitchAlsup said:
How would you like to:
a) play against Jack Niklaus in his prime ?
b) drive against Michael Schumacher in his prime ?
c) Basket ball against Pistol Pete in his prime ?
d) Baseball against Pete Rose in his prime ?

Yeah, I though so.
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Anyone who doesn't want to compete against the best has no interest in being the best they can be, they just want a cookie. I don't need a cookie, I make my own. I want the challenge. I want to see what they do to me so I can improve.
 
garczar said:
Would you go broke doing it? The vast majority of league/tournament players are working weekend-warriors that aren't going to spend money just to go get slaughtered by players they have no chance of beating.
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I am totally willing to play a great player with no chance of winning. I have done it and I am sure I will have occasion to do it again. I don’t mind donating to the cause and like to see what they can do up close. And one of the great things about pool is the players are accessible. As the post above asked about playing with greats, in sports like golf and pool, ams can play against pros without being physically hurt. So many golfers have paid big money to play in pro ams. In pool it is less organized.

That said, I have limits and suspect others do too. There is only so much losing you will do with zero chance. And I don’t think it is the ideal way to learn. You have to play better players. And I think there is value in playing a top player. But only so much because you will only learn so much if you are many levels below them. So as a small piece of your playing I am all for it. Playing in a bigger local or regional tournament is a good way to do it. But simply donating to a player you can’t beat doesn’t do much. Now if you can compete a little with a substantial spot and it doesn’t cost a ton the value goes up. So a sliding scale I guess. So yeah, I’ll spend some money, but…
 
SBC said:
You are describing pool from 30 years ago.
You got better or You got used to losing.
The pecking order was clear in every pool hall.

That's how pool should have stayed.
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There is a third group. Those who quit.

You don’t want to drive people from the game. Neither do you want to gear everything to those who would have quit. Ideally there is a range of events. If the players who can’t win are playing leagues and small tournaments it is good for the game overall. And some will enter some of the bigger local events. No need to run them off.
 
JPB2 said:
I am totally willing to play a great player with no chance of winning. I have done it and I am sure I will have occasion to do it again. I don’t mind donating to the cause and like to see what they can do up close. And one of the great things about pool is the players are accessible. As the post above asked about playing with greats, in sports like golf and pool, ams can play against pros without being physically hurt. So many golfers have paid big money to play in pro ams. In pool it is less organized.

That said, I have limits and suspect others do too. There is only so much losing you will do with zero chance. And I don’t think it is the ideal way to learn. You have to play better players. And I think there is value in playing a top player. But only so much because you will only learn so much if you are many levels below them. So as a small piece of your playing I am all for it. Playing in a bigger local or regional tournament is a good way to do it. But simply donating to a player you can’t beat doesn’t do much. Now if you can compete a little with a substantial spot and it doesn’t cost a ton the value goes up. So a sliding scale I guess. So yeah, I’ll spend some money, but…
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The problem is that 'winning' due to a handicap is still losing, you are just getting rewarded for losing.
 
vintagecollectibles831 said:
Curious, what do you think would happen if there were no handicaps, in any leagues or tournaments?

Do you think that the popularity of pool still be very good, and competitive?

Do you think that a lot of players would just stop competing?

Do you think that the leagues greatly suffer, and die?

Do you think that the players just stop playing in tournaments, and they too would die?

Thanks for any thoughts on what you think woukd happen, in this fictional world, where no leagues or tournaments ever did handicapping, and all tournaments were open to players of all skill levels.

Would this be good, or bad for competitive pool, in the long run?
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we would lose a number of casual players and sand baggers, but, develop more champions

the fastest way to improve is to have a competent coach/mentor, play players that are better than you and you must hate losing

last but not least you must pursue your goal by playing/practicing at least 40 hrs a week unless your a freak of nature

no dope, to include booze
 
DeeDeeCues said:
The problem is that 'winning' due to a handicap is still losing, you are just getting rewarded for losing.
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I think there’s more to it than that. Like in a tournament where you get games on the wire, maybe you get to hill- hill against the better player. You get the experience of playing that game in that situation. And maybe you learn something or find a way to deal with the pressure. Likewise, the better player has to compete harder and focus against the player with the handicap. Generally the handicap is such that the better player still has the best of it. Or like in one pocket. Maybe a player is good enough to compete with a given spot. He will still lose overall, but will get more out of it and have more situations come up against the better player that he has to work through. So the better player wins, but both have to work a little. I don’t view this as a bad thing or getting a participation trophy. And not all tournaments should be handicapped, a variety of events is better for the game overall.
 
JPB2 said:
I think there’s more to it than that. Like in a tournament where you get games on the wire, maybe you get to hill- hill against the better player. You get the experience of playing that game in that situation. And maybe you learn something or find a way to deal with the pressure. Likewise, the better player has to compete harder and focus against the player with the handicap. Generally the handicap is such that the better player still has the best of it. Or like in one pocket. Maybe a player is good enough to compete with a given spot. He will still lose overall, but will get more out of it and have more situations come up against the better player that he has to work through. So the better player wins, but both have to work a little. I don’t view this as a bad thing or getting a participation trophy. And not all tournaments should be handicapped, a variety of events is better for the game overall.
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I don't see where someone gets more out of it in your scenarios. It is still a cookie--it only means something emotionally. It is ego stroking without logic.
 
Financial ruination for league franchisors and franchisees, pool room operators that leads to less revenue for cottage industries, pool cue and cue case makers and lots affiliated businesses involved with billiards at varying levels. Any growth in the pool playing public would become adversely affected and interest in the game would suffer as well. It sounds like a great idea if you only operated bowling alleys. Anything to help drive the business your way I suppose. Unfortunately, doing this would be deleterious to pool’s future, albeit as already bleak as it so frequently starts seeming like nowadays.
 
pt109 said:
I hung around the Rack in Detroit a lot in the 70s….it was the best action room in the world.
At least 80% of the big action involved a handicap.
I used to tell people “There is no two people that can’t make a fair game….although I did my best to avoid that situation.
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Very off topic, but do you recall exactly where The Rack was located? The address maybe? As dumb as it might sound, it always interests me to see where pool halls were located. Famous pool halls like that. To maybe stand in the same spot where some famous hustlers once stood, lol. I know, silly.
 
nine_ball6970 said:
I have always said that handicapping is good for pool. Even though they want to slaughter everyone, stronger players would get more out of their game if they had to play well to win every match. Most matches are so uneven that the stronger players dont even have to try and still win.

Handicaps that result in more hill hill matches are good for both parties. The stronger player has to bring it hill hill and the weaker players gets more experience in a situation that may never come up if they were to play that same player even.

The biggest factor for casual players is the buy in. Most casual players would play anyone if the buy in was reasonable. As the buy in increases, the stronger players are happy they can win more money but you start to see weaker players not wanting to play.
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Yeah, like a $1,000 entry event, for example. Like for players of 650 Fargo and under for example, mostly only players around that top 650 speed would be playing. I was really amazed when Savanah Easton won one of those, for all players Ranked up to 650 Fargo.
 
I think most leagues would drop in attendance drastically . People don’t want to put the time in to get good at something and they’ve become accustomed to playing good players and still having a chance to win. Honestly after years of playing in leagues I enjoy the challenge of having to outrun the nuts at leagues. It’s more of a challenge.
 
vintagecollectibles831 said:
Very off topic, but do you recall exactly where The Rack was located? The address maybe? As dumb as it might sound, it always interests me to see where pool halls were located. Famous pool halls like that. To maybe stand in the same spot where some famous hustlers once stood, lol. I know, silly.
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The building was torn down a few years ago and is no longer there, but this is exactly where it was, on the north side of and up against that grassy area that has the big rocks on it.
www.google.com

13400 Capital St · 13400 Capital St, Oak Park, MI 48237

Building
www.google.com www.google.com

This thread has some pictures of it (long after it had been closed though). If you want to be able to enlarge the pics you have to have an account and be signed in.

Here is one of the many great threads about the place.
FSutton

Thread 'The Rack in Detroit'

I love my pool history and I was wondering if anyone on here could share any stories about this famous room in Detroit. Anyone have any pictures of it? Etc I'm all ears
  • Like
 
DeeDeeCues said:
I don't see where someone gets more out of it in your scenarios. It is still a cookie--it only means something emotionally. It is ego stroking without logic.
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If a weak player gets better by losing to stronger players playing heads up why not just watch matches online? Pretty much the same thing if you are sitting in your chair watching some guy pummel you. I'm not talking about players that are 50 Fargo points apart, I mean like 150 Fargo points apart. Who doesn't play even up when the spread is 50-75 points? I would have no problem entering weekly capped but unhandicapped tournaments where players were a max of 150 Fargo points better, beyond that its pretty much ridiculous. As far as going hill/hill with a stronger player because of a handicap I think it helps put the weaker player in a position that he normally wouldn't see so it can help improve his game, they will get experience player under real pressure, not just league game type pressure.
 
It would probably almost kill pool at this point to drop all handicaps. The only tournaments I have seen that kept a good size crowd week after week for years without handicaps were single game match 8 Ball tournaments. It made people feel good to beat the top players which happened pretty often. They did not win because the handicap gave them an advantage. It may have been pure luck, but they beat the better player fair and square. They would still be bragging about it the next week. They also played it on just a couple of 9 foot tables and people watched and cheered and so on. Single game match round robin type of league play might make it. But handicaps are so entrenched now I do not think we can turn the format back.
 
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