Aiming B.S.

jjohnson said:
I saw a video that showed the instructor placing the cue ball at the center of the head string. Then his challenge was to shoot the cue ball through the spot at the foot of the table and make it bounce off the rail and come back through the spot and through the center of the head string where it was shot from. He said that most players can't do that.

I watched another video, I think it was straight pool 14:1. Thorsten Hohmann was about to take a break when he was asked how to make balls and run balls. He said when he gets back he'll tell us. He gets back and says it's simple. He just shoots for the ghost ball.

But in both cases no explanation or instruction on the technique of aiming was given. So in just a moment, when I'm through here, you can say I'm stupid or help me out and point me to a video where it is explained. I mean, if it is so obvious and easy to learn with perfect instruction, then why are most people unable to run balls. And why doesn't Efren or Shane or Dennis or Earl explain? Isn't there this brotherhood of sharing. Let me know. I'd sure like to never miss or rarely so I can run balls.

Here goes: Yes. The ghost ball. I can pick up the cue ball and place it against the object ball to align it so as to make the object ball in the pocket. But you have to consider contact and or english throw too. You need to not only aim the cue ball to make the ghost ball and subsequently the object ball but you have to deliver the cue ball with the precise action to get the position for the next shot.

So, I say these aiming techniques or tricks are b.s. because they never tell you how to do this. Care to try? I think it's a safe bet that you either can't or won't tell us. Come on, chare, man.
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HAMB will also help a poor player be even worse.

Ghost Ball has limits; contact point and other systems let you aim at a real target instead of an imaginary target. Further, the ghost ball changes size over distance and is unworkable for most amateurs.
 
jjohnson said:
I saw a video that showed the instructor placing the cue ball at the center of the head string. Then his challenge was to shoot the cue ball through the spot at the foot of the table and make it bounce off the rail and come back through the spot and through the center of the head string where it was shot from. He said that most players can't do that.

I watched another video, I think it was straight pool 14:1. Thorsten Hohmann was about to take a break when he was asked how to make balls and run balls. He said when he gets back he'll tell us. He gets back and says it's simple. He just shoots for the ghost ball.

But in both cases no explanation or instruction on the technique of aiming was given. So in just a moment, when I'm through here, you can say I'm stupid or help me out and point me to a video where it is explained. I mean, if it is so obvious and easy to learn with perfect instruction, then why are most people unable to run balls. And why doesn't Efren or Shane or Dennis or Earl explain? Isn't there this brotherhood of sharing. Let me know. I'd sure like to never miss or rarely so I can run balls.

Here goes: Yes. The ghost ball. I can pick up the cue ball and place it against the object ball to align it so as to make the object ball in the pocket. But you have to consider contact and or english throw too. You need to not only aim the cue ball to make the ghost ball and subsequently the object ball but you have to deliver the cue ball with the precise action to get the position for the next shot.

So, I say these aiming techniques or tricks are b.s. because they never tell you how to do this. Care to try? I think it's a safe bet that you either can't or won't tell us. Come on, chare, man.
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I’ve never seen anyone discuss aiming here.
 
straightline said:
Troll team.

Funny I buy the X factor - perhaps not in Marvel terms but it's a trait of predators. Ghost ball, not so much. It kinda works, it's easy to teach, it's a convenient tool, and mostly BS.
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Why is ghost ball BS? Ultimately its where or extremely close to where the cue ball must end up to pocket the object ball.
 
jjohnson said:
Okay. Forget the ghost ball technique for determining the shot line. What aiming technique do you recommend? I don't think it matters because whatever is used, that cue ball must go from point A to point B consistently every time. And this requires accurate aiming in any and all cases. So, with your recommendation, tell us how to send the cue ball to make contact with the object ball to make the perfect hit consistently. I'm sure we would all like to know.
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But it's more than just aiming, much more. We are humans, not machines, our stroke, at least for the layman who doesn't spend 6-10 hours a day at the table, have inconsistencies. If you set up 2 golf tees at the opposite end of the table 2 1/2" a part and have someone spot balls in front of you and you don't move other than to complete the stroke I doubt that you will split the golf tee's on every shot. So now as a human you have to figure out if you missed because of aim or a stroke inconsistency. In a real game you then have to make adjustments based on incomplete info so you don't miss your next shot. Throw in getting your whole body in proper alignment, sometimes the table interferes so you have to alter your stance, cut induced throw, skid, english, vision center, etc there are so many variables that can cause your aim point to be incorrect how can there just be a simple way to say "this is how you aim"?
 
Anyone mentioned the Ghost Ball....Changes position, as it moves a little left or a little right depending on speed/spin/cloth/humidity?
 
jjohnson said:
I saw a video that showed the instructor placing the cue ball at the center of the head string. Then his challenge was to shoot the cue ball through the spot at the foot of the table and make it bounce off the rail and come back through the spot and through the center of the head string where it was shot from. He said that most players can't do that.

I watched another video, I think it was straight pool 14:1. Thorsten Hohmann was about to take a break when he was asked how to make balls and run balls. He said when he gets back he'll tell us. He gets back and says it's simple. He just shoots for the ghost ball.

But in both cases no explanation or instruction on the technique of aiming was given. So in just a moment, when I'm through here, you can say I'm stupid or help me out and point me to a video where it is explained. I mean, if it is so obvious and easy to learn with perfect instruction, then why are most people unable to run balls. And why doesn't Efren or Shane or Dennis or Earl explain? Isn't there this brotherhood of sharing. Let me know. I'd sure like to never miss or rarely so I can run balls.

Here goes: Yes. The ghost ball. I can pick up the cue ball and place it against the object ball to align it so as to make the object ball in the pocket. But you have to consider contact and or english throw too. You need to not only aim the cue ball to make the ghost ball and subsequently the object ball but you have to deliver the cue ball with the precise action to get the position for the next shot.

So, I say these aiming techniques or tricks are b.s. because they never tell you how to do this. Care to try? I think it's a safe bet that you either can't or won't tell us. Come on, chare, man.
Click to expand...
"You need to not only aim the cue ball to make the ghost ball and subsequently the object ball but you have to deliver the cue ball with the precise action to get the position for the next shot." Those are TWO different things, "aiming" and delivery. (It's three, if you fold in "precise action to get the position".

What do you, @jjohnson actually mean by "aiming", because it is hard to tell what you're expecting, when you say, "they never tell you how to do this", because by reading the above, "this" seems to be more than one thing.

Note: Prior to this post, I read through the others that were in the thread (up to #47), and almost replied to two of yours about specific points. I decided to return to the top, to try and understand your issue better.
 
straightline said:
I think noobs can determine the shot correctly but are fooled when trying to SEE the shot. Parallax distortion is not your fairy god mother.
Ever see a carpenter aim and free hand every piece of stock through his expensive table saw?
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Parallax. Yes. This is the first time anyone mentioned anything related to eyes and sight. This is what I am hinting at. Aiming requires addressing parallax. This is an excellent start.

Another is the idea of dominant eye.

Here is your freebee, on me. This may boost your game. Let us know -

In pocket billiards, "dominant eye" refers to the eye that the brain prefers to use for processing visual input, particularly when focusing on distant objects or aligning a shot. It is the eye that typically takes the lead in sighting, often being the one that first tracks to a target. This eye is crucial for tasks requiring accurate alignment, such as lining up the cue with the cue ball and the object ball. The dominant eye is determined by subjective alignment, where one eye will naturally be used to fixate on a distant point while the other eye follows. A common method to test for eye dominance involves extending both arms, creating a small opening with the hands, and looking through it at a distant object; closing one eye at a time reveals which eye keeps the object centered. While many players are advised to position their dominant eye directly over the cue for optimal alignment , the most important factor is finding a consistent head position and sighting technique that allows for accurate aiming, which may not always align with the dominant eye. This optimal position is sometimes referred to as the "vision center," which may not necessarily correspond to the dominant eye.

Cheers
 
lfigueroa said:
People cannot run balls because they cannot position their body where it needs to be and make their stroking arm move accurately and consistently enough to hit the CB and OB where they wish.

Lou Figueroa
aiming is easy
the rest, not so much
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That is correct. This is part of aiming. A very fundamental part. So how do you get there? That is the question. That's easy. You have to align your body, as well. So in effect, you are aiming with your body, too. Again. How do you get there? By asking the right questions. You can see this being done by the pros. To my eye, it is very clear in this video. Dave Matlock vs Nick Varner. Dave aims aligning his body consistently in the shape of a triangle or wedge.
 
jjohnson said:
Okay. Great. Hit a million balls. If done conscientiously it is claimed you should become pretty good at aiming.
If this is so, will someone who has hit a million balls, tell us right here, how they aim?
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Rote muscle memory.

Seriously, you look at the shot and hit it. You already account for spin, speed, throw, deflection, CIT, cloth speed, humidity, ball cleanliness etc. At some point you see the correct shot picture and just do it with variables accounted for.

Some aiming systems can help you come up with the right shot picture, but without practicing it to rote, you are always devoting precious brain power/focus to something that is able to be offloaded into non thinking territory.

Rote shot making, earned through practice, will always beat conscious thinking about this stuff. There's nothing wrong with having to analyze something but when you go to execute the shot, it's best to do so with a clear head. I'm not saying you can't do this, but if you get agonizing over aiming and can't let it out of your "working ram" it's a detriment.

At some point for most people, aiming becomes somewhat automatic, or just looking at the shot. You don't really calculate or analyze much, but you can if for some reason you need to. It becomes hard to explain aiming because you can aim correctly and miss for a number of reasons. Speed changes aim, missing the "microdot" on the CB can miss a shot (mechanics), deflection can cause a miss, etc. All this stuff has to align to make a shot.

EDIT: In all seriousness if you want to know how to aim, study how spheres contact and rub each other. It's more dynamic than systems can address. The good part is, if you find a system that gets you close and your mechanics are solid, your body/subconscious fine tunes it. You're hitting a sphere with a sphere, which part of the CB rubs which part of the OB is what matters, and it's not perfect in most 2D diagrams or systems. You have to account for physics also.
 
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heater451 said:
"You need to not only aim the cue ball to make the ghost ball and subsequently the object ball but you have to deliver the cue ball with the precise action to get the position for the next shot." Those are TWO different things, "aiming" and delivery. (It's three, if you fold in "precise action to get the position".

What do you, @jjohnson actually mean by "aiming", because it is hard to tell what you're expecting, when you say, "they never tell you how to do this", because by reading the above, "this" seems to be more than one thing.

Note: Prior to this post, I read through the others that were in the thread (up to #47), and almost replied to two of yours about specific points. I decided to return to the top, to try and understand your issue better.
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How do you put the desired action on the cue ball? Let's say you need some high right to get position. You have to strike the cue ball on the upper right side. How do you do this? You must aim the cue tip to strike this point on the cue ball to give it the desired action. This is all part of aiming the shot. The shot is just not pocketing the object ball, it is also making the shape. That is the entire complete shot. And you accomplish this by aiming the entire shot.
 
jjohnson said:
That is correct. This is part of aiming. A very fundamental part. So how do you get there? That is the question. That's easy. You have to align your body, as well. So in effect, you are aiming with your body, too. Again. How do you get there? By asking the right questions. You can see this being done by the pros. To my eye, it is very clear in this video. Dave Matlock vs Nick Varner. Dave aims aligning his body consistently in the shape of a triangle or wedge.
Click to expand...

hmmm, not really.

Sure your body has to be in alignment but more importantly all the small parts of your body have to be in the right configuration to execute an accurate stroke. Eyes have to give you a proper view of the shot, particularly the CB; your bridge must be in the right spot and height, and your grip must be able to launch at a true and consistent trajectory. And don't forget that sometimes you'll be in a relatively natural stance at the table but other times you'll be stretched out on one foot and other times something in between.

What you're saying about Varner and Matlock is far too simplistic.

Lou Figueroa
 
boogieman said:
Rote muscle memory.

Seriously, you look at the shot and hit it. You already account for spin, speed, throw, deflection, CIT, cloth speed, humidity, ball cleanliness etc. At some point you see the correct shot picture and just do it with variables accounted for.

Some aiming systems can help you come up with the right shot picture, but without practicing it to rote, you are always devoting precious brain power/focus to something that is able to be offloaded into non thinking territory.

Rote shot making, earned through practice, will always beat conscious thinking about this stuff. There's nothing wrong with having to analyze something but when you go to execute the shot, it's best to do so with a clear head. I'm not saying you can't do this, but if you get agonizing over aiming and can't let it out of your "working ram" it's a detriment.

At some point for most people, aiming becomes somewhat automatic, or just looking at the shot. You don't really calculate or analyze much, but you can if for some reason you need to. It becomes hard to explain aiming because you can aim correctly and miss for a number of reasons. Speed changes aim, missing the "microdot" on the CB can miss a shot (mechanics), deflection can cause a miss, etc. All this stuff has to align to make a shot.

EDIT: In all seriousness if you want to know how to aim, study how spheres contact and rub each other. It's more dynamic than systems can address. The good part is, if you find a system that gets you close and your mechanics are solid, your body/subconscious fine tunes it. You're hitting a sphere with a sphere, which part of the CB rubs which part of the OB is what matters, and it's not perfect in most 2D diagrams or systems. You have to account for physics also.
Click to expand...
What I am aiming for (I made a pun) is clarification of exactly how to aim and what to aim for and integrating all the necessary aiming elements into a single synchronous connected whole. That is, to describe a step by step process, or routine, to consistently aim and run balls. Once these steps have been ingrained, then they become rote. And then you feel or "just see" the shot. Practice makes perfect. Good practice. So you need a step by step consistent as humanly possible flawless routine that must be followed every time. That should be your goal.
 
fastone371 said:
But it's more than just aiming, much more. We are humans, not machines, our stroke, at least for the layman who doesn't spend 6-10 hours a day at the table, have inconsistencies. If you set up 2 golf tees at the opposite end of the table 2 1/2" a part and have someone spot balls in front of you and you don't move other than to complete the stroke I doubt that you will split the golf tee's on every shot. So now as a human you have to figure out if you missed because of aim or a stroke inconsistency. In a real game you then have to make adjustments based on incomplete info so you don't miss your next shot. Throw in getting your whole body in proper alignment, sometimes the table interferes so you have to alter your stance, cut induced throw, skid, english, vision center, etc there are so many variables that can cause your aim point to be incorrect how can there just be a simple way to say "this is how you aim"?
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Certainly sxxt happens. But did you consistently aim properly and send the cue ball accurately to your target with the proper action on this shot? If you did then you have done nothing wrong, you've done everything right, and you can depend on doing that the next time and so on and on. Job well done.
 
see the shot line with your vision center(ghost ball/contacts/contact patch,,,,for you @straightline .... 😊 /fractions/CTE/poolology/stick pivot
whatever you use
get into your stance so that the cue stick is under your vision center and all is in line with the shot line
deliver the cue in a straight line
viola...you made the ball ...i hope.... 😂
tip position and speed and spin add alittle more to it for position
 
jjohnson said:
What I am aiming for (I made a pun) is clarification of exactly how to aim and what to aim for and integrating all the necessary aiming elements into a single synchronous connected whole. That is, to describe a step by step process, or routine, to consistently aim and run balls. Once these steps have been ingrained, then they become rote. And then you feel or "just see" the shot. Practice makes perfect. Good practice. So you need a step by step consistent as humanly possible flawless routine that must be followed every time. That should be your goal.
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I commend that.

I think the issue is, you have the law of diminishing returns. You could write a thousand page treatise on aiming, but in the end, only 20% or so would be functionally usable for the average human being. Your muscle memory, studying how the balls react, and repetition fills in the remaining 80%. I mean do you need to know the friction coefficient to pocket balls? No, but it's kind of important, if balls were made of rubber the game would be entirely different.

The issue with "aiming" isn't really where to hit the balls, which is what most aiming systems cover. The issue is that even with a perfect aim any deviation in stroke, ball cleanliness, conditions, deflection, CIT, etc can cause a miss. When this happens, an astute player will recognize what is going on and adapt. Most established aiming systems will work with enough practice. There are many systems because everyone sees and thinks about stuff differently.

In all seriousness, seeing where to hit is only part of the battle, you then have to contend with physics. Even most billiard simulations can't account for all physics. I'm not into math enough to care to dig into this, but there are formulas for physics of spheres. I'd guess you could do some internet sleuthing and look into how billiard simulators/video games simulate physics. While some are good, they will never be exact.

If you want to get really into the weeds (in a good way) go through Dr. Dave's resources. He has SAWS which attempts to show an aiming system with side spin. There are many different schools of thoughts on aiming, accounting for deflection etc. Making all aspects into one cohesive system is a difficult task, good luck, I wish you success.
 
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