Tougher tables did not help USA pros for 20 years

iusedtoberich

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Everyone and their mother says practicing on tougher equipment makes one a better player. USA dominated Mosconi Cup when Gold Crowns were the standard. Once Diamond with 4.5" Pro-Cut pockets took over in the USA from about 2005 until today, Europe has dominated. The tables Europe play on (Dynamic, SAM) don't have nearly the deep shelf the Diamond does, even if the pockets happened to be tightened to the same 4.5" at the mouth.

Food for thought.
 
The way I look at it is twofold:

1) Tom Rossman told me that players need some positive feedback. Having said that, I don't understand why everybody brags about having 4.25" pockets or 4.1/8" pockets, etc, etc. That's why I went with 4.75" on my new Diamond Professional. My Gold Crown IV has 4.5" corners and 4.75" sides.

2) If want to shoot into tight pockets and theoretically improve my ball pocketing skills I will put those Pocket Reducers on and shoot into 3" pockets.

r/DCP
 
China do pretty well using 'tough' equipment. I imagine if they travelled more, they would compete easily with filipinos for the cream of the crop. Anyone playing American pool here wants a 4" corner, sometimes less. Don't really need to comment on Chinese tables here, we all know they are tough as hell.
 
Yeah those pocket reducers are mostly gimmick. Guys will just bang at 'em from 45 degrees and then go out and pillage.

Same thing with those impossible golf tables.

Other mistakes include easier defense...

20K to fail at the Cup...

etc...
 
maha said:
very tight pockets help the ball strikers more.

more forgiving ones help those that plan and are able to make better routes for their out.
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The Euros have us beat in every single category you can think of:

Lag
Shot-making
Safeties
Lag
Break
Decision-making
Push-out
Lag
Position play

And those are just some of the physical side of things. They can spot us the 7 and out in the mental aspect of the game as well.

Pocket sizes doesn't really come into play in the grand scheme of things, the cream always rises to the top.
 
iusedtoberich said:
Everyone and their mother says practicing on tougher equipment makes one a better player. USA dominated Mosconi Cup when Gold Crowns were the standard. Once Diamond with 4.5" Pro-Cut pockets took over in the USA from about 2005 until today, Europe has dominated. The tables Europe play on (Dynamic, SAM) don't have nearly the deep shelf the Diamond does, even if the pockets happened to be tightened to the same 4.5" at the mouth.

Food for thought.
Click to expand...

i don't see the causality between diamond and the waning of american dominance. lots of things happened at or around that time: tours folding, generational shift, poker boom, stock market crash, etc. all the while the euros caught up with the eurotour plugging along nicely. and the asians grew, strength in numbers, and had the china open, all japan championship etc.

and my mother has stayed conspicuously silent on the matter.
 
Kris_b1104 said:
The Euros have us beat in every single category you can think of:

Lag
Shot-making
Safeties
Lag
Break
Decision-making
Push-out
Lag
Position play

And those are just some of the physical side of things. They can spot us the 7 and out in the mental aspect of the game as well.

Pocket sizes doesn't really come into play in the grand scheme of things, the cream always rises to the top.
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Except obese. See how well they do in the 350 + weight class. I don't think they'd even cash in a beer gut contest.
 
One thing is for certain. It's not the tables that have weakened U.S. pool! It's the mindset of the current crop of American players. For them good enough is okay. You want to be a champion at any sport, you must do the work and put in the time required. They must be highly motivated and dedicated to the sport, with a desire to continually improve their game, whatever that takes. I don't see that here today. I do see it when I'm in the Philippines where they live, eat and breathe pool every hour of every day.

I like to see players practice on tough tables. But doing that once a week ain't gonna cut it. The very best players are working at their games on a daily basis until they reach a sustained level of excellence. In the last twenty years we've had only one player willing to do that.
 
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The Euros attend pool schools from a young age- strokes are totally honed for those that stay into their late teens. Euros play in " pool clubs" where they are highly competitive but supportive of each other and the game - so they stay with it much longer - in America, every time you walked in a pool hall- somebody was trying to rob you/ hustle you - people get tired of that real fast and move on to other sports/games/interests.

In America, rooms just kept closing and closing since 2000, and those that survived or opened since then mostly went to 7 foot tables- literally pulling out all the nine foot Brunswick's - everywhere! The growth of APA and other league play in America is mostly a 7 foot table affair as well.

Local tournaments in America at pool rooms often died out after a few months in most rooms because the tournament directors are often "in" on the money scams being run and people just get tired of it and quit.

Back in the day- every major city in America had Boys Clubs where playing pool was a mainstay event and there were local to national level pool tournaments that had boys playing the game from age 8 to 16 - no more!

At one time our collegiate level pool room proliferation was huge and there were local to national level events as well.

All of these factors contribute to the lack of pool expertise in America outside of casinos, poker, the internet, etc.

I won't say much about the Diamond long shelf 4 1/2 inch proliferation vs. the older Brunswick/ Gandy/ AESchmidt 5 inch pocket tables except to say that early success for a newbie in a pool room - where there was no instruction --led to more interest in getting involved with the game- period! I keenly remember early trips to my local room with my friends at age 16 in 1969 - if most of the shots were bouncing out of tight pocketed tables - we probably would have not returned too often, instead many of us spent a lifetime with a game we liked so much from the beginning.
 
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I don't think the tighter pockets have anything to do with it. At least in pool rooms. When it comes to practice.

You go to the local pool room, without a doubt, THE TIGHTEST TABLES IN THE ROOM, HAVE THE ABSOLUTE WORST PLAYERS ON IT, playing one pocket or 9ball with 20 innings per game. LIKE THEY ARE CHALLENGING THEMSELVES ON HOW BAD THEY SUCK.
This is absolutely everywhere and as far as I am concerned, the standard.
So much so, that I think good players just don't even bother with tight equipment. Especially given the fact that no one wants to deal with garbage players who gatekeep the tight tables if you end up with a game wanting you to pay their table time to get off the table or wanting to finish their game that takes another hour.

If the entire room had 4' tight pockets, that's a different story, but where does that happen?
And 4' tight pockets with diamonds and that extra shelf is a total snoozefest to watch. By far, the stupidest pool I have ever watched. And no, I'm not talking about new cloth. I'm talking bout the other 51 weeks of the year that the cloth is old.

No dynamic creative aggressive pool play.
Pool players dribbling balls in the hole and winners being determined by who hung up the ball in the pockets more than their opponents, on shots that need some pace for position that literally can't go.

I think American pool players are in their own little world where the majority feel world class, but don't put in the time. Especially when you don't have to practice or prove yourself because you know your buddy is going to pick you anyway. 👀
 
iusedtoberich said:
Everyone and their mother says practicing on tougher equipment makes one a better player. USA dominated Mosconi Cup when Gold Crowns were the standard. Once Diamond with 4.5" Pro-Cut pockets took over in the USA from about 2005 until today, Europe has dominated. The tables Europe play on (Dynamic, SAM) don't have nearly the deep shelf the Diamond does, even if the pockets happened to be tightened to the same 4.5" at the mouth.

Food for thought.
Click to expand...
Not on board with this line of reasoning. In 2005, most of the top players in pro pool were still American. Entering the 21st century, only a handful of Europeans were full-time players of American pool. Among them were Ortmann, Souquet, Feijen, Lely, Chamat, and Immonen, and nearly none of the others traveled to America to compete. In all the major pool events, the fields before 2000 featured very few Europeans.

The watershed moment came in 2000 when Matchroom, which produced only the Mosconi Cup and the World Pool Masters at the time, made its first ever move into large-scale tournament pool, producing the World 9ball in Cardiff for 2000-2003. Although the Euro-tour had existed since 1992, for many Europeans, and I have spoken with some of them over the years, this is when American pool came into full view among European cueists. In 2004, the World 9ball moved to Asia, but Europe's interest in American pool had been piqued, and from 2005-15, the number of Europeans playing American pool skyrocketed. From 2015-25, the game became increasingly global, and there are now great players in every corner of the globe.

Americans dominated at American pool prior to 2005, to some extent, because they were the ones playing it. While there is no denying that pocket size figures in the equation, attributing America's fall from grace to the tightening of the pockets is missing the boat. Everyone plays 9ball now, and the American domination seen prior to 2005 may never be seen again.
 
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Kris_b1104 said:
The Euros have us beat in every single category you can think of:

Lag
Shot-making
Safeties
Lag
Break
Decision-making
Push-out
Lag
Position play

And those are just some of the physical side of things. They can spot us the 7 and out in the mental aspect of the game as well.

Pocket sizes doesn't really come into play in the grand scheme of things, the cream always rises to the top.
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Their talent pool is larger, deeper, and better trained.
The pocket sizes have nothing to do with it.
 
Oh, so you found a new way to cry about Diamond tables and wedge in how you think GC’s are better.

American players failures have nothing to do with Diamond tables or smaller pockets. It’s American players desire to play on Fisher Price kid boxes and refer to it as pool that creates the problem. It would be sort of like Americans playing nothing but putt putt instead of golf, and then crying that American golfers get crushed by golfers from elsewhere.
 
The number of US players actively/avidly playing on 9ft tables has been dropping for years. Our inability to beat Euros/Asians/etc has nothing to do with the size of the pockets.
 
In Europe, disco was never not cool. They now produce the best electronic artists in the world….

Americans live in a culture that complains that time is too valuable to be wasted, and then go home to a dirty house and watch TV for 3 hours a day.

We have a tremendously toxic relationship with time. It bleeds into everything we do.
 
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