2025 Grand Averages for World Championship and World Cups

A

albatross

cynical squared
Silver Member
1-Myung Woo Cho. 1.900
2-Eddy Merckx. 1.883
3-Frederic Caudron. 1.819 (missed one event)
4-Sameh Sidhom. 1.736
5-Martin Horn. 1.719
6-Marco Zanetti. 1.712
7-Glenn Hofman. 1.686 (missed one event)
8-Tayfun Tasdemir. 1.679
9-Jeremy Bury. 1.676
10-Berkay Karakurt. 1.641
11-Phuong Vinh Bao. 1.622
12-Dick Jaspers 1.616
13-Haeng Jik Kim. 1.614
14-Jung Han Heo. 1.613
15-Quyet Chien Tran. 1.575
16-Hong Chiem Thai. 1.552
17-Nikos Polychronopoulos. 1.488
18-Peter Ceulemans. 1.457
19-Tolgahan Kiroz. 1.440
20-Thanh Luc Tran. 1.431
 
Bert van Manen said:
Tell me you're old without telling me you're old. :)
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By the way, has anybody given thought to the strange fact that the averages at the top have stagnated? Yes, they have. TB had an Overall World Cup average of 1.928 as long ago as 1995. Sanchez had 2.035 in 2015. Jaspers was over 2.000 on three occasions when winning the OWC. Caudron won it with 2.176 in 2018. Now check back with the list above. I'm no Delphi oracle, but this is my attempt at an explanation. 1) The switch from 40 pt matches to group matches (40) and K.O. matches (to 50). They have to make a lot more points. When Dani set the World Cup grand average record (2.777), he made 200 points. These days, the winner of a World Cup often makes 320 points. Big difference. 2) In the group stage, the players have a (big!) incentive to record high averages, as those often decide about advancing. In the K.O. stage, that incentive is gone. There is basically no difference for the player, between a win in 20 or a win in 40 innings. Same ranking points, same money. Which creates an incentive for defensive thinking. You see K.O. matches all the time, that are something like 27-21 in 10 at halftime, and the winner still uses 28 innings. My two cents.
 
Bert van Manen said:
By the way, has anybody given thought to the strange fact that the averages at the top have stagnated? Yes, they have. TB had an Overall World Cup average of 1.928 as long ago as 1995. Sanchez had 2.035 in 2015. Jaspers was over 2.000 on three occasions when winning the OWC. Caudron won it with 2.176 in 2018. Now check back with the list above. I'm no Delphi oracle, but this is my attempt at an explanation. 1) The switch from 40 pt matches to group matches (40) and K.O. matches (to 50). They have to make a lot more points. When Dani set the World Cup grand average record (2.777), he made 200 points. These days, the winner of a World Cup often makes 320 points. Big difference. 2) In the group stage, the players have a (big!) incentive to record high averages, as those often decide about advancing. In the K.O. stage, that incentive is gone. There is basically no difference for the player, between a win in 20 or a win in 40 innings. Same ranking points, same money. Which creates an incentive for defensive thinking. You see K.O. matches all the time, that are something like 27-21 in 10 at halftime, and the winner still uses 28 innings. My two cents.
Click to expand...
I am not a 3c player but love to watch and study the game
I dont really understand your post
A higher average means higher runs on average than historically
So doesnt that mean the players today play better?
I want to learn
This is not confrontational
 
bbb said:
I am not a 3c player but love to watch and study the game
I dont really understand your post
A higher average means higher runs on average than historically
So doesnt that mean the players today play better?
I want to learn
This is not confrontational
Click to expand...
No problem bbb, asking questions is a good habit. Average must not be confused with higher runs. I'd be happy to make ten runs of four. :) My question was: why aren't today's grand averages higher than those of 5, 10 and 15 years ago? And, surprisingly, they're not. I've tried to explain why, but others may have a different take.
 
Bert van Manen said:
No problem bbb, asking questions is a good habit. Average must not be confused with higher runs. I'd be happy to make ten runs of four. :) My question was: why aren't today's grand averages higher than those of 5, 10 and 15 years ago? And, surprisingly, they're not. I've tried to explain why, but others may have a different take.
Click to expand...
Thank you for the reply
It’s getting late for me so I will have to re-study your post tomorrow
And after further review, pondering and consideration, I will get back to you
Merry Christmas Bert if you celebrate that
 
Bert van Manen said:
No problem bbb, asking questions is a good habit. Average must not be confused with higher runs. I'd be happy to make ten runs of four. :) My question was: why aren't today's grand averages higher than those of 5, 10 and 15 years ago? And, surprisingly, they're not. I've tried to explain why, but others may have a different take.
Click to expand...
How is total avgs compared 20 year ago? I mean top 20 (2005) avg vs top 20 today...?
I think that shows is game getting better level overall. Also I don´t know game too well myself yet too but it seems to me weaker players leave more good starting shots and higher level players seem to score higher avgs vs weaker players...
FInland not have any good carom players but I play online and there is couple pro level Koreans playing too and they shoot sometimes over 3.0 if you leave them good starters..
 
Bert van Manen said:
By the way, has anybody given thought to the strange fact that the averages at the top have stagnated? Yes, they have. TB had an Overall World Cup average of 1.928 as long ago as 1995. Sanchez had 2.035 in 2015. Jaspers was over 2.000 on three occasions when winning the OWC. Caudron won it with 2.176 in 2018. Now check back with the list above. I'm no Delphi oracle, but this is my attempt at an explanation. 1) The switch from 40 pt matches to group matches (40) and K.O. matches (to 50). They have to make a lot more points. When Dani set the World Cup grand average record (2.777), he made 200 points. These days, the winner of a World Cup often makes 320 points. Big difference. 2) In the group stage, the players have a (big!) incentive to record high averages, as those often decide about advancing. In the K.O. stage, that incentive is gone. There is basically no difference for the player, between a win in 20 or a win in 40 innings. Same ranking points, same money. Which creates an incentive for defensive thinking. You see K.O. matches all the time, that are something like 27-21 in 10 at halftime, and the winner still uses 28 innings. My two cents.
Click to expand...
Bert van Manen said:
No problem bbb, asking questions is a good habit. Average must not be confused with higher runs. I'd be happy to make ten runs of four. :) My question was: why aren't today's grand averages higher than those of 5, 10 and 15 years ago? And, surprisingly, they're not. I've tried to explain why, but others may have a different take.
Click to expand...
i am still alittle confused
it seems you are saying the current format creates an incentive for defensive thinking
and that was not true in the past
wouldnt that lend itself to lower averages today ...which is not the case.
my thinking you need high runs to raise your average since its not likely for someone to score 4
ten times in a row
 
bbb said:
i am still alittle confused
it seems you are saying the current format creates an incentive for defensive thinking
and that was not true in the past
wouldnt that lend itself to lower averages today ...which is not the case.
my thinking you need high runs to raise your average since its not likely for someone to score 4
ten times in a row
Click to expand...
Correct, the incentive to have a high finishing average is lower at the end of the event.

And for those who don't know, "the end" is the knockout (K.O.) that Bert refers to.

3c tournaments see players organized into groups in a round robin format. The best few from each group (based on will/ loss record, then scoring average when necessary) advance to the main event...which is the K.O. stage.

In the main event, loser goes home. Therefore, average is not a consideration in/ of itself in the K.O portion.
 
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Bert van Manen said:
By the way, has anybody given thought to the strange fact that the averages at the top have stagnated? Yes, they have. TB had an Overall World Cup average of 1.928 as long ago as 1995. Sanchez had 2.035 in 2015. Jaspers was over 2.000 on three occasions when winning the OWC. Caudron won it with 2.176 in 2018. ....
Click to expand...
Maybe the top players have found most of the "secrets" of the game in the last 60 years, and we are seeing the limit of human performance. I think there is some of that. Maybe a little more "oil" has seeped in to the game.
 
Bob Jewett said:
Some surprises there... Jaspers at 12th?!

I remember when -- cue the Tommy Dorsey music -- there was only one player who averaged over 1 for the season.
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I posted this same chart on this forum in 2023 and 2024. If you type in some key words you can find them. In both of those years DJ was the only player who averaged over 1900. I think last year MWC was second, about 200 behind him. That means that for every five innings, DJ made one point more than the second highest averaging player in the world. This year, in seven of the eight tournaments, he averaged under 1900. In two tournaments his best game was under 1900. He turned 60 in July and wears glasses now. Maybe he needs time to get used to the glasses!
 
erriep said:
Dany Sanchez isn't on the list because he's banned from the UMB (World Championship & World Cups) , since he plays for the PBA
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could someone send me a PM to explain this please
no reason to side track this thread
 
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