(Un)Popular Opinion on Fargo Rate

[cookie man]

No matter the tournament....a bunch of kids playing in a schoolyard. Only 3 people are supposed to win. Always been that way and always will be.

Knock that bunch down to half the kids cause the best kids aren’t allowed to play anymore. At least around me they aren’t

 

[fuggles]

nope not how it works, they have to win more than their expected number of games. It's not like a 650 fargo will have their rate go up by beating a 520 5-3 or losing 4-3. They're expected to win 6-2 or 6-3

I will provide in exact example. 600 plays a 500 in a race to 5 tournament. Fair match race is 6-4. The probability of winning in a 600 vs 500 is 2 to 1. So if the 600 wins the match on a hill hill then the score is 6 to 3. Exactly as expected. If the 500 does not make the hill, then the 600 wins by more than the expected value.

 

[mikepage]

Well while fargo was getting going I was playing decently and got my rating up to 640 with a lot of games in robustness. Five years later I’ve gotten older. Health not as good. Eyes not as good and so I’m playing at a much lower speed. Probably 560 or so. But I’m stuck. No where to play. Everyone is running 600 and under. 550 and under. So I have basically quit pool thanks to fargo until they come up with some kind of old age medical condition exemption.

This is your performance 300 games at a time, where each dot is estimated performance for the 300 games leading up to that date.

 

[cookie man]

This is your performance 300 games at a time, where each dot is estimated performance for the 300 games leading up to that date.



View attachment 899029

So you are saying I played 300 games between those last two dots and I played at a 637 rating? I highly doubt I played that many games I that time frame. And I’m certainly not playing at that speed. I got destroyed by mid 500 players at the international open last year.
A year and a half and played in what 3 tournaments. Haven’t cashed in any of them. Two knee replacements and a shoulder replacement along with two retina bleeds. Then add in being 66 yrs old Tell me how your system makes that adjustment to a player. It doesn’t.

 

[mikepage]

So you are saying I played 300 games between those last two dots and I played at a 637 rating?

Yes, correct.

I highly doubt I played that many games I that time frame. And I’m certainly not playing at that speed. I got destroyed by mid 500 players at the international open last year.
A year and a half and played in what 3 tournaments. Haven’t cashed in any of them. Two knee replacements and a shoulder replacement along with two retina bleeds. Then add in being 66 yrs old Tell me how your system makes that adjustment to a player. It doesn’t.

 

[cookie man]

Yes, correct.

Thats hilarious. 3 tournaments in two years. Never cashed. Got knocked out by sub 600 players. Yea I’m playing really good.
Notice you didn’t comment on the rest of my post. That’s because your system can’t make adjustments for old age or medical issues

 

[fuggles]

Thats hilarious. 3 tournaments in two years. Never cashed. Got knocked out by sub 600 players. Yea I’m playing really good.
Notice you didn’t comment on the rest of my post. That’s because your system can’t make adjustments for old age or medical issues

There isn't any system that correct for your health problems.

 

[cookie man]

There isn't any system that correct for your health problems.

I know. Me and lots of others are screwed by fargo.

 

[Ģüśţāṿ]

I know. Me and lots of others are screwed by fargo.

At least in regular leagues you can contact your LO about skill level adjustments for health reasons, not here!

 

[Coos Cues]

People are still making the mistake of thinking that fargo rate is skill level. It's not, it's performance. Any number of things can affect performance. Someone could be a 600 fargo but skill wise be a 750. They tweak one thing or start practicing more and bang, they're winning tournaments. The reason you don't see it that often is that players aren't often increasing their practice or discovering the thing holding them back in competition. That's not even taking into consideration that the way fargo tournaments are structured, the players in the 600-700 range will be kept artificially low if they are only or mainly competing against lower skilled players for the reasons I've already mentioned.

If they were to exclusively play in higher level open tournaments, their fargo rates would be higher.

Skill level and performance are not different entities. They tend to follow a linear path.

 

[Coos Cues]

Well while fargo was getting going I was playing decently and got my rating up to 640 with a lot of games in robustness. Five years later I’ve gotten older. Health not as good. Eyes not as good and so I’m playing at a much lower speed. Probably 560 or so. But I’m stuck. No where to play. Everyone is running 600 and under. 550 and under. So I have basically quit pool thanks to fargo until they come up with some kind of old age medical condition exemption.

I guess it's finally time to head down to Florida for that money match?

Just kidding, sorry to hear about your health issues. I just turned 67.

 

[Jaden]

Skill level and performance are not different entities. They tend to follow a linear path.

They're correlative; however, they aren't a direct correlation. I know many players who can win but have difficulty using side spin effectively or running out effectively or getting position effectively. Fargo rate, solely measures ability to win racks, not skill level or ability to execute the various aspects of the game.

I usually stay out of these threads. It becomes reductive. It's kind of like the CTE threads.

 

[Coos Cues]

They're correlative; however, they aren't a direct correlation. I know many players who can win but have difficulty using side spin effectively or running out effectively or getting position effectively. Fargo rate, solely measures ability to win racks, not skill level or ability to execute the various aspects of the game.

I usually stay out of these threads. It becomes reductive. It's kind of like the CTE threads.

I can see what you mean. Lots of folks can get things done using different tool boxes. If the center ball player studies and perfects siding will his winning increase? I don't know.

However nothing approaches the CTE threads, not even political threads.

 

[cookie man]

I guess it's finally time to head down to Florida for that money match?

Just kidding, sorry to hear about your health issues. I just turned 67.

It’s been a little rough but getting better. Thanks.

 

[tableroll]

When Fargo Rate first appeared, my initial internal reaction was something like, “This is super. Over time, Fargo Rate will allow me and others to better understand nuanced grades of skill in players, including where I fit into the pecking order…even if it’s way down the line.”

Right now, I view FargoRate as an almost perfect assassin for much of the joy I used to find in pool.

The accuracy with which FargoRate grades the skill of players is shocking…to me. Maybe everyone else knew this was going to happen and they don’t care, and I am late to my own observation.

When a tournament starts, the list of guys who will play at the end is fairly small. Even though players like Jesus Astencio, Tyler Styer, and John Morra are ridiculously talented compared to 99.9% of pool players, in a tournament that is well attended by players on the top 100 list, we now understand that they are “dead money” or almost "dead money" to win the event. There is no one who wants this last statement to be 100% wrong more than me. However, when one scans the banners at the DCC, the pictures are dominated by very few players and there is an outsized representation of Efren, SVB, and Fedor.

Prior to FargoRate, a player’s standing in the pecking order of skill was more of a mystery. In addition, I think it was less clear how much a player’s special expertise in a game contributed to a win or a loss prior to FargoRate. For example, prior to FargoRate, if a “Eurobot” player drew “Established Pro One Pocket Specialist”, this might be viewed as an interesting match-up.

Now, provided the “Eurobot” player has even a rudimentary understanding of One-Pocket and a sufficiently high advantage in FargoRate, it’s clear that (in many instances) the match is over before it starts in favor of “Eurobot”.

Finally, I think FargoRate makes clear that perhaps the most important part of becoming a world class player, is time at the table competing against other world class players. If you look at what countries occupy the top 100 Fargo Rates in the world, what jumps out to me is the percentage of players who come from locations where there is a custom to regularly compete (Philippines, Poland, Taiwan, China).

If you thought you could practice your way to greatness in the basement prior to FargoRate (I realize this might have always been a minority opinion), FargoRate has destroyed that misapprehension.

I am under no illusions. The FargoRate genie will not go back into its bottle, but sometimes it makes sense (to me) to notice the good and the bad.

I think the answer is finding new ways to enjoy pool in a new environment. For example, I may consider becoming a tournament director for tournaments capped at 590, where all the matches will be streamed, for free, with commentary from players whose skill level does not exceed 590, where the entry fee will be $1500.00 and the Calcutta will last 9 days, creating a purse of 3 million dollars. Obviously, the tournament will take place on bar tables with 3-inch pockets—we can’t have balls go that shouldn’t. Since the tournament is single elimination, there will be a second chance poker event. I promise to run my events as slowly as possible. Hopefully, no one is able to sleep.

The dress code for my events will be called, "Homeless Adjacent". We will encourage sports jerseys and pajamas. We will ban collared shirts as those are associated with "nits", but we will definitely not enforce this rule, because the best rules are meant to be ignored. Clearly, bathing is optional, and all disputes will be settled with loud shouting matches.

I resolve to embrace the future.

kollegedave

When Fargo Rate first appeared, my initial internal reaction was something like, “This is super. Over time, Fargo Rate will allow me and others to better understand nuanced grades of skill in players, including where I fit into the pecking order…even if it’s way down the line.”

Right now, I view FargoRate as an almost perfect assassin for much of the joy I used to find in pool.

The accuracy with which FargoRate grades the skill of players is shocking…to me. Maybe everyone else knew this was going to happen and they don’t care, and I am late to my own observation.

When a tournament starts, the list of guys who will play at the end is fairly small. Even though players like Jesus Astencio, Tyler Styer, and John Morra are ridiculously talented compared to 99.9% of pool players, in a tournament that is well attended by players on the top 100 list, we now understand that they are “dead money” or almost "dead money" to win the event. There is no one who wants this last statement to be 100% wrong more than me. However, when one scans the banners at the DCC, the pictures are dominated by very few players and there is an outsized representation of Efren, SVB, and Fedor.

Prior to FargoRate, a player’s standing in the pecking order of skill was more of a mystery. In addition, I think it was less clear how much a player’s special expertise in a game contributed to a win or a loss prior to FargoRate. For example, prior to FargoRate, if a “Eurobot” player drew “Established Pro One Pocket Specialist”, this might be viewed as an interesting match-up.

Now, provided the “Eurobot” player has even a rudimentary understanding of One-Pocket and a sufficiently high advantage in FargoRate, it’s clear that (in many instances) the match is over before it starts in favor of “Eurobot”.

Finally, I think FargoRate makes clear that perhaps the most important part of becoming a world class player, is time at the table competing against other world class players. If you look at what countries occupy the top 100 Fargo Rates in the world, what jumps out to me is the percentage of players who come from locations where there is a custom to regularly compete (Philippines, Poland, Taiwan, China).

If you thought you could practice your way to greatness in the basement prior to FargoRate (I realize this might have always been a minority opinion), FargoRate has destroyed that misapprehension.

I am under no illusions. The FargoRate genie will not go back into its bottle, but sometimes it makes sense (to me) to notice the good and the bad.

I think the answer is finding new ways to enjoy pool in a new environment. For example, I may consider becoming a tournament director for tournaments capped at 590, where all the matches will be streamed, for free, with commentary from players whose skill level does not exceed 590, where the entry fee will be $1500.00 and the Calcutta will last 9 days, creating a purse of 3 million dollars. Obviously, the tournament will take place on bar tables with 3-inch pockets—we can’t have balls go that shouldn’t. Since the tournament is single elimination, there will be a second chance poker event. I promise to run my events as slowly as possible. Hopefully, no one is able to sleep.

The dress code for my events will be called, "Homeless Adjacent". We will encourage sports jerseys and pajamas. We will ban collared shirts as those are associated with "nits", but we will definitely not enforce this rule, because the best rules are meant to be ignored. Clearly, bathing is optional, and all disputes will be settled with loud shouting matches.

I resolve to embrace the future.

kollegedave

590 and below? May get some to sign up that are 550 and below.