middleofnowhere
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Years ago it was becoming a common thing for cue makers to dip shaft wood in a product called Nelsonite. There may have been other products but that's the one that I believe Billy Stroud and Tim Scruggs for both using.
Do cue makers who make wood shafts still use a wood sealer dip?
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middleofnowhere
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This is just a more active forum. You can post on some of the sub forums and get no answer if at all for days. This is not off subject any more then discussing CF shafts. What was done to try stabilize wood shafts in the past and still may be relevant is interesting.
I don't mind the post, just saying that you actually might get an answer from a cue maker
middleofnowhere
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If the grain is really straight from tip to joint, it is far less likely to warp. I used to have a one-piece cue that was carried in the gun rack of my truck. Amazingly it never warped.
Besides Nelsonite there was a product called Resolute that didn't smell as strongly. However both were pure hell on your lungs. I used to go outside with a breeze blowing and still have to bring a fan out to dip shafts in an upright three or four inch PVC pipe. It is amazing how much of these liquids a shaft blank can soak up in a minute or less. The liquid foams like it is in a hard boil until all the air comes out of a piece of wood and there is a lot of air in wood!
Aside from the little matter of killing myself, I quit using these dips because they deaden the feel of the hit a little. Very noticeable if you test the same wood side by side.
Hu
middleofnowhere
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I'll tell you a funny story about dipping. I went to a plumbing store to have a dipping pipe made up with a screw on cap. It was taking a long time. I later discovered they were stalling keeping me there.
What I was ordering was too close to a pipe bomb and they called the cops. I just had to answer some questions and they let me go.
I recall Nelsonite is or contains carcinogens. IOW, circa 50s chemicals. These stabilizers I believe, allowed manufacturers to crank stuff out and guarantee straightness. Probably not the whole story but straight shafts are high on my list of stick qualities.
The main chemical is Nelsonite that you don't want prolonged exposure to is Xylene. Stabilizers don't really let you make shafts faster. I've never heard a cuemaker guarantee a shaft will stay straight.
Not the cue guys but the mass producers of Viking, Lucasi, - whoever the actual mfgers. There's way less wait for the wood to settle itself.
Some still use Nelsonite or other similar stabilizing agents, but it seems that the consensus now is that if a shaft want's to warp it does and the stabilizing agent just makes you spend more time on a shaft that still will warp at some point. It's the same with drying wood in general. Some makers rely on moisture control to keep things stable from square to dowel to final piece, while many cuemakers actually "tortures" the wood, so you weed out the bad blanks before you even start working it, saves you time in the long run.
I don't believe any of the stabilizing agents are safe to use without fresh air, supplied air. I used to know something about xylene, not popping to the top of my head at the moment. I want to say it was a highly dangerous ingredient in some paints such as the three part paints that used equal parts of paint and "hardener" and roughly an equal part of thinner. That info is a little shaky but what isn't shaky is all of that shit is dangerous as hell!
I was using Ditzler products when their high epoxy paint came out, Deltron? similar to Imron. I talked to the factory at least once or twice a week for about six months. Talked to one engineer who I thought I knew well. He told me the double bugeye organic vapor face masks were plenty adequate. After six months my shop foreman and I who painted cars together, were both having to sleep sitting up after spraying a car, breathing issues. I called to talk to the engineer and he was on vacation. Talked to a different engineer. "Oh, we don't let our people even mix that paint without fresh air."
There was something labeled as a respirator number on the side of the paint can, an OSHA number. I spent hours on the phone to OSHA. "That isn't really an OSHA number, it is a bureau of mines number." What the hell, I have ran this rabbit this far, I called the bureau of mines to find out what this respirator was. "The number doesn't refer to a respirator,"(despite the labeling on the can,Hu) "It refers to a pamphlet."
"What is the pamphlet about?"
"Fresh air systems."
While on the general subject, some people finish entire cues with superglue type products. His doctor told one cue maker that this was what was causing him to die. Second hand info, I wasn't in the doctor's office.
Lot's of dangerous stuff out there. Think twice before using it especially in volume. I went back to using standard wood sealers and finishes. I also turned a shaft blank from square to rough tapered in eight to ten turnings then a few more turnings to get to final taper. Out of a gross of blanks, 20-30% became finished shafts. I didn't see that the stabilizers upped the percentage a whole lot. Best I recall, less than ten percent more stayed straightish, and all of them sounded and hit soft. If somebody wanted a sharp sound when hitting a cue ball I couldn't get it with the stabilizers. I could get the medium hard hit I prefer so I used the stabilizers on3-6 gross of shaft blanks.
Main thing I learned about shaft blanks, they make damned good tomato stakes in the garden! Rows and rows of eight dollar apiece tomato stakes.
Hu
I was using Ditzler products when their high epoxy paint came out, Deltron? similar to Imron. I talked to the factory at least once or twice a week for about six months. Talked to one engineer who I thought I knew well. He told me the double bugeye organic vapor face masks were plenty adequate. After six months my shop foreman and I who painted cars together, were both having to sleep sitting up after spraying a car, breathing issues. I called to talk to the engineer and he was on vacation. Talked to a different engineer. "Oh, we don't let our people even mix that paint without fresh air."
There was something labeled as a respirator number on the side of the paint can, an OSHA number. I spent hours on the phone to OSHA. "That isn't really an OSHA number, it is a bureau of mines number." What the hell, I have ran this rabbit this far, I called the bureau of mines to find out what this respirator was. "The number doesn't refer to a respirator,"(despite the labeling on the can,Hu) "It refers to a pamphlet."
"What is the pamphlet about?"
"Fresh air systems."
While on the general subject, some people finish entire cues with superglue type products. His doctor told one cue maker that this was what was causing him to die. Second hand info, I wasn't in the doctor's office.
Lot's of dangerous stuff out there. Think twice before using it especially in volume. I went back to using standard wood sealers and finishes. I also turned a shaft blank from square to rough tapered in eight to ten turnings then a few more turnings to get to final taper. Out of a gross of blanks, 20-30% became finished shafts. I didn't see that the stabilizers upped the percentage a whole lot. Best I recall, less than ten percent more stayed straightish, and all of them sounded and hit soft. If somebody wanted a sharp sound when hitting a cue ball I couldn't get it with the stabilizers. I could get the medium hard hit I prefer so I used the stabilizers on3-6 gross of shaft blanks.
Main thing I learned about shaft blanks, they make damned good tomato stakes in the garden! Rows and rows of eight dollar apiece tomato stakes.
Hu
I believe it, I have built quite a few cutting boards, it's amazing how much mineral oil an 18" x 24" cutting board will soak up, sometimes it would take 24 hours. That HAS to have an affect on shaft weight at some point?
Good points. My research tells me Nelsonite, or others, helps prevent the change in humidity in wood, which can prevent warping. I haven't done a lot of shaft work but whenever I had raw wood (mainly sanding down older shafts) I have always used a sealer for this reason. I also believe, but can't confirm, it helps prevent the bluing of the shaft due to chalk residue.
However, and as much as I'm a newbie when it comes to wood working, there is one thing I have learned, mother nature is going to do what it wants. That 1" x 1" square shaft blank has an infinite amount of directions it can go once you start spinning it down, and it doesn't care about you and your timeline. Every time you spin it down a tenth/thousandth, you just opened up countless ends of grain that may have been under compression or tension or both and they are going to do what they want on whatever timeline they choose. I have 5 shaft blanks that I bought as squares 6 years ago, I have been slowly knocking off the corners and spinning them down (I knocked the corners off a year after purchase and have put them on the lathe twice since then), they are currently at about .95" and I haven't touched them in 2-3 years. I have wood for 2 cues, when I have them built I want the builder to take at least another year finishing the shafts, I'll wait, it's worth it.
Science and scientist can and have created many products that enhance woods ability to withstand all sorts of conditions.
Sadly we are seeing a lot of those products removed from the marketplace based upon many factors. Least of which is what is better or worse.
A lot of this is claimed to be harmful to our health. A lot is political based upon opinions and not fact.
There are wood preservatives, sealers, hardeners and all sorts of other things and sadly some incredible products are being removed from the marketplace here in America.
For instance I’ve been trying to purchase Japan Driers. A product that has been around forever, it’s an accelerant for oil based finishes. Fortunately for me I found a supplier that let me buy his entire remaining stock at clearance pricing.
I have no idea what I’ll do when I run out.
The sad thing is we likely will not be better off with these products being removed as there’s no viable replacement for them..
Sadly we are seeing a lot of those products removed from the marketplace based upon many factors. Least of which is what is better or worse.
A lot of this is claimed to be harmful to our health. A lot is political based upon opinions and not fact.
There are wood preservatives, sealers, hardeners and all sorts of other things and sadly some incredible products are being removed from the marketplace here in America.
For instance I’ve been trying to purchase Japan Driers. A product that has been around forever, it’s an accelerant for oil based finishes. Fortunately for me I found a supplier that let me buy his entire remaining stock at clearance pricing.
I have no idea what I’ll do when I run out.
The sad thing is we likely will not be better off with these products being removed as there’s no viable replacement for them..
We coulda been partners in crime! I needed some very heavy wall high grade steel tubing to make the front a-plates for my race car out of. I got confused with the measurements I needed for OD and ID and ordered twice the wall thickness I needed! They started questioning me hot and heavy because I seemed to be very close to rifle barrel dimensions!
I needed some stout stuff but it had to let me thread the interior and then screw 3/4" spherical rod ends in. Double the wall thickness and I was closer to a 3/8" hole and they do make a handful of rifles in .375 caliber!
They got over it when I realized what I was ordering wasn't what I wanted anyway but with long hair and a beard I was getting a lot of side eye for awhile.(grin)
Sealers I have dealt with don't penetrate very deep. I consider them a primer for whatever finish you are putting on the shaft. Stabilizers completely saturate the wood.
This is what I have found with products I have used, not the be all end all. Sealers go in from the sides of the shaft, stabilizers go in mostly from the ends traveling through end grain.
I like the esthetics of wood but I have long thought we needed something better for shafts. Gonna have to design cue butts to look better with black shafts but that shouldn't be hard.
Hu
Vacuum treatment maybe?