Thoughts on players who seemingly take Zero practice strokes, before shooting / final follow through?

Im one of those players. I see my point of aim, I go down and get my tip close to cueball and pause for few seconds to make sure everything feels right and pull back and fire. Only time im feathering or micro stroking is on long straight in shots and straight draw shots. I also dont have a long follow through 4 to 5 inches on most shots. Most of my shots the tip never contacts the table unless im drawing or going low on the shot.
 
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This started as a thread about those that 1 stroke the ball and turned into a pivot point discussion for those who subscribe to that foolishness.

Thoughts on those that 1 stroke or 1 stroke then fire? They trust in themselves and their training and don’t THINK, about pivot points, BHE or other associated nonsense that hold players plateaued because they can’t get out of their head and stop thinking when they play.
It's only foolishness to the people who aren't willing to try it. I promise you EVERY filipino player uses BHE.
 
It's only foolishness to the people who aren't willing to try it. I promise you EVERY filipino player uses BHE.
I was about 13, 14 and fascinated with pool. A Filipino friend from school was always at the one room and I would bang at him rotation. (I could barely make hangers.) He told me and I quote, "Put english!" Since my bridge was so critical to pool shooting I didn't dare move it. Didn't feel like it should deviate from dead center. So I twisted the cue to the spots he indicated. And so it began. lol...
 

I just figured with the question of this thread that I'd play the ghost a bit using zero practice strokes, well I did use them on the breaks, but none on the playing shots.

I think this pretty much answers the question, unless someone thinks I would've done better than the above with practice strokes.

My thoughts are that if you're in proper alignment it doesn't really matter and won't make a difference either way with 2 exceptions.

I think that if it's part of your prestroke routine that many people might have difficulty transitioning to a no practice stroke, stroke, and second that using no practice strokes might be better for players who find themselves missing shots because of steering the cue, bending their wrist or other second guessing derived misses.

I may myself test out playing some more with little or no practice strokes just to see longer term how it works for me.

In the video I said 3.4" sides, I meant 4.4", but I remeasured them and they are closer to 4.5" but the corners are definitely 3.9.

:edit: on that last rack if I wasn't trying to run out I would've just slid the 4 past the six and locked the cb on the 8. That's one thing that I hate about playing the ghost and I usually won't play it by the standard rules. I like to practice the shots as they should be played. So if I get a shot that should be played as a safe, I play the safe, I try to make the safe as if I'm the opponent, if I make it, I keep going and if I miss it, I take bih again.
 
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You shoot pretty sporty... you are exactly right that if you can see your point of contact and go down with proper alignment it doesnt make a lot of difference. when you are down taking those micro or practice strokes it gives you to much time to second guess your shot. You should have everything figured out before you go down on the shot.
 
You shoot pretty sporty... you are exactly right that if you can see your point of contact and go down with proper alignment it doesnt make a lot of difference. when you are down taking those micro or practice strokes it gives you to much time to second guess your shot. You should have everything figured out before you go down on the shot.
Yeah actually I use a method or rather for this exercise i used a method of aiming I call cross the flag. It's going to sound complicated to explain but it makes sighting the proper aim line rather easy.

So I visualize a solid line the width of the ball coming back from the pocket through the object. Ball and continue that line out to where the cb is. Then I make a box using the tangent line from the ob and the parallel line to that on the cb.

It ends up looking like a flag with the line from the pocket being the pole. Then I cross the line from the cb to the ob, hence the term crossing the flag.

That line is the aim line. I know it sounds complex but in practice it gives an easy full visualization of the shot line that is accurate for all angles.

In the video when you see me standing in line with the ob. That is what I'm doing.


It gives an accurate contact point to contact point visual cue.
 
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What is missing here was supplied by Dr. Dave (see snip below from TP-B26):

If you have a cue with a pivot length that does not match bridge length, you still pivot the cue around it's pivot point, but must use a combination of FHE and BHE. So for an LD shaft with the pivot at 15", the pivoting is still at the 15" point, but requires combination of FHE and BHE.

****
With the bridge length at the natural pivot length of the shaft (B=N), the percentage of
BHE is 100% (P=1), with no FHE pivot.
With a bridge length shorter than the natural pivot length (B<N), the percentage of BHE
is less than 100% (P<1), and the FHE percentage completes the total pivot to 100%.
With a bridge length longer than the natural pivot length (B>N), and the percentage of
BHE is greater than 100% (P>1), with the FHE percentage being the negative of the
excess beyond 100%.
Thanks for sharing this post. This puts it in perspective for me, but I have a question. For a person with 8-10 inch bridge, would you suggest a regular shaft or a LD?
 
Thanks for sharing this post. This puts it in perspective for me, but I have a question. For a person with 8-10 inch bridge, would you suggest a regular shaft or a LD?
If you want an 8-10 inch bridge, play with a shaft that is 8-10 inches for the pp. You don't want to mess around with trying to figure out where it is all the time. Trust me, it's tedious.
 
Yeah actually I use a method or rather for this exercise i used a method of aiming I call cross the flag. It's going to sound complicated to explain but it makes sighting the proper aim line rather easy.

So I visualize a solid line the width of the ball coming back from the pocket through the object. Ball and continue that line out to where the cb is. Then I make a box using the tangent line from the ob and the parallel line to that on the cb.

It ends up looking like a flag with the line from the pocket being the pole. Then I cross the line from the cb to the ob, hence the term crossing the flag.

That line is the aim line. I know it sounds complex but in practice it gives an easy full visualization of the shot line that is accurate for all angles.

In the video when you see me standing in line with the ob. That is what I'm doing.


It gives an accurate contact point to contact point visual cue.
A diagram of this would be helpful. Could go in the aiming sub-forum.
 
A diagram of this would be helpful. Could go in the aiming sub-forum.
Here you go.

:edit: That's not exactly the way 'I' visualize, but that's the way that it shows geometrically correct without having to get into a crazy detailed explanation, and it gets the jist of it.
 

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I learned the 'Value' of minimal warm-up'stokes for 3C artistic shots from an Mexican Artistic Champion in the late 60's!

Not wasting essential energy before strikng the CB!

It's served me well for almost 65 years!

BTW, the table is from the 40's!

 
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Thanks for sharing this post. This puts it in perspective for me, but I have a question. For a person with 8-10 inch bridge, would you suggest a regular shaft or a LD?
I don't care for LD shafts as such but I am curious as to why one would shoot everything with the same "focal" length. Shots have too much range to confine yourself like that.
 
I don't care for LD shafts as such but I am curious as to why one would shoot everything with the same "focal" length. Shots have too much range to confine yourself like that.
I'm not going to go into it again, I would suggest looking into pivot point for a shaft. The benefits are numerous. If you constantly change your bridge length even when forced not to, I would imagine you miss a lot of balls.

Actually I will. All shafts have a point on which they will hit the same point if lined up on a straight shot and rotated for any side spin while keeping the bridge stationary and rotating the back arm(hand) to appy side spin. Of course there are other variables, which can be mitigated in certain ways, but for arguments sake, let's just say that you can hit the point you're aiming at if you bridge at the point on your shaft (pivot point) that hits that point with side spin applied. All shafts have them. LD shafts have pp (pivot points) that are farther back.

Some people use this as an advantage when adjust for sidespin by using BHE (back hand english). That is to say, you aim every shot as though you're going to hit straight center ball and then, while maintaining that bridge position, you manipulate the cue so that it's pointing on the cue ball for the amount of side spin that you want.

There are things that come into play, like swerve (masse), so people that use BHE should raise their bridge for follow and lower their bridge for draw to best minimize this effect.

Now I use a different method for finding the pivot point than that of Dave or others suggest and it is for this reason. Well, first let me say how I find it. I setup various shots and shoot them with extreme sidespin usng bhe and adjust my bridge length until they consistently go in center pocket. It's easier on my table because of how tight the pockets are.

This method isn't best for finding the cue's natural pivot point as it is typically defined but it's better for using BHE because it takes the natural swerve, CIT and deflection that creates multiple variables into account and gives a more day to day usable PP.

There is a second type of PP for a cue and that is for FHE(front hand english). That is instead of rotating the rear arm and keeping the bridge stationary to put the amount of english you desire, you keep your back arm locked and slide the bridge hand (front hand) side to side to apply the english you desire.

It just so happens that they tend to be at the same place. what I mean by that is that if you are bridging for the PP for BHE, typically (if your arm is at 90 degrees at the tip contact with the cue ball) your grip hand will be at the correct point to rotate for FHE, but this should be verified prior to use because it's not always the case.

This definitely comes in handy when you can't bridge at the BHE PP because of an obstructing ball. You can bridge anywhere and slide your bridge for FHE and still effectively use side spin.

Now a quick list of benefits (these are mostly benefits of bridging at the cue's pivot point, not holding the butt for the FHE PP)

1) Stroke forgiveness
a). Since you shot doesn't know if you intended to rotate at contact, it doesn't care and the ball will often be potted successfully anyways.
b). You can use various methods of applying BHE, players in the past have successfully used swiping (twisting the cue sideways just before contact) although I wouldn't suggest it.
2) consistency
a). your body develops muscle memory, the more variables you introduce by varying bridge length, the longer it will take to develop said muscle memory and the more variables there are the more likely failure will occur.
3) BHE
a). The ability to easily adjust for squirt with any cue and use any side spin you want while still striking the ball where you want has so many advantages, it's hard to explain. It's ESPECIALLY important for shots in one pocket. Inside or outside to throw a bank to get out of the way is essential for high level one pocket.
b). being able to more accurately aim for CIT(collision induced throw). Sometimes you don't quite have an available angle because of a ball obstruction. With BHE there's no need to guess, you get to use spin to aim slightly off and throw the ball into the pocket. You still aim as though you were going to just shoot the ball regularly but the squirt sends the cue ball in at a different angle to avoid the obstruction, but the spin throws the ball in the pocket.

There's more but I don't feel like writing a book right now, especially when I started out the post saying I didn't want to answer it again at all...lol.
 
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I don't care for LD shafts as such but I am curious as to why one would shoot everything with the same "focal" length. Shots have too much range to confine yourself like that.

Exactly right. Lot of talk on here about what pros do. I'll tell you what they do. It's very simple.

They do whatever is necessary in any given situation to give themselves the biggest margin of error possible. Doing that allows them to be successful to the highest percentage possible.

Bridge or stroke length, stroke speed, amounts and types of english, position routes and many other things are just tools they use very skillfully to give themselves the best possible chance of success.

Of course most will have a default bridge length on a normal shot and though it varies player to player the majority bridge in the 10-12" range.
Watch 20 high level pros shoot in an hour long video and you'll see that with most, unless they have to stretch or need a lot of power they're bridge is nowhere near the natural pivot point of their shaft.

Don't have to believe me, just watch some vids.

Better still, for those who go to big tournaments, ask a few pros how much attention they pay to pivot points. The answer will be...not much.
 
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I'm not going to go into it again, I would suggest looking into pivot point for a shaft. The benefits are numerous. If you constantly change your bridge length even when forced not to, I would imagine you miss a lot of balls.

Actually I will. All shafts have a point on which they will hit the same point if lined up on a straight shot and rotated for any side spin. Of course there are other variables which can be mitigated in certain ways, but for arguments sake, let's just say that you can hit the point you're aiming at if you bridge at the point on your shaft that fits the above. All shafts have them. LD shafts have pp (pivot points) that are farther back.

Some people use this as an advantage when adjust for sidespin by using BHE (back hand english). That is to say, you aim every shot as though you're going to hit straight center ball and then manipulate the cue so that it's pointing on the cue ball for the amount of spin that you want.

There are things that come into play, like swerve (masse), so people that use BHE should raise their bridge for follow and lower their bridge for draw to best minimize this effect.

Now I use a different method for finding the pivot point than that of Dave or others suggest and it is for this reason. Well, first let me say how I find it. I setup various shots and shoot them with extreme sidespin usng bhe and adjust my bridge length until they consistently go in center pocket. It's easier on my table because of how tight the pockets are.

This method isn't best for finding the cue's natural pivot point as it is defined but it's better for using BHE because it takes the natural swerve, CIT and deflection that creates multiple variables into account and gives a more day to day usable PP.

There is a second type of PP for a cue and that is for FHE(front hand english). That is instead of rotating the rear arm and keeping the bridge stationary to put the amount of english you desire, you keep your back arm locked and slide the bridge hand (front hand) side to side to apply the english you desire.

It just so happens that they tend to be at the same place. what I mean by that is that if you are bridging that the PP for BHE, typically (if your arm is at 90 degrees at the tip contact with the cue ball) your grip hand will be at the correct point to rotate for FHE, but this should be verified prior to use because it's not always the case.

This definitely comes in handy when you can't bridge at the BHE PP because of an obstructing ball. You can bridge anywhere and slide your bridge for FHE and still effectively use side spin.

Now a quick list of benefits (these are mostly benefits of bridging at the cue's pivot point, not holding the butt that FHE PP)

1) Stroke forgiveness
a). Since you shot doesn't know if you intended to rotate at contact, it doesn't care and the ball will often be potted successfully anyways.
b). You can use various methods of applying BHE, players in the past have successfully used swiping (twisting the cue sideways just before contact) although I wouldn't suggest it.
2) consistency
a). your body develops muscle memory, the more variables you introduce by varying bridge length, the longer it will take to develop said muscle memory and the more variables there are the more likely failure will occur.
3) BHE
a). The ability to easily adjust for squirt with any cue and use any side spin you want while still striking the ball where you want has so many advantages, it's hard to explain. It's ESPECIALLY important for shots in one pocket. Inside or outside to throw a bank to get out of the way is essential for high level one pocket.
b). being able to more accurately aim for CIT. Sometimes you don't quite have an available angle because of a ball obstruction. With BHE there's no need to guess, you get to use spin to aim slightly off and throw the ball into the pocket. You still aim as though you were going to just shoot the ball regularly but the squirt sends the cue ball in at a different angle to avoid the obstruction, but the spin throws the ball in the pocket.

There's more but I don't feel like writing a book right now, especially when I started out the post saying I didn't want to answer it again at all...lol.
Depends on the groundwork. I've done 126 in saturation drills. That's not straight pool. That's 4 trays of balls at a time; twice back to back. Cue balls included. So, 63 on the table at a time; one cue ball to shoot with. I consider that 126 perfectly executed strokes. Yes they all went in the holes. Those that want video, just do it yourself. You'd be amazed at what you learn and develop along the way.

To me, pool execution is like flying a helicopter. You need independent control of many variables and a sense for it all. And no, I've never been in a helicopter but I do know it's done.

So much for me. It's still the pool.
 
I've hijacked this thread enough. Be hard headed all you want. Ignore the GOAT all you want. I'm done.
 
I learned the 'Value' of minimal warm-up'stokes for 3C artistic shots from an Mexican Artistic Champion in the late 60's!

Not wasting essential energy before strikng the CB!

It's served me well for almost 65 years!

BTW, the table is from the 40's!


Brings back memories of watching George Rippe do his thing. Sometimes he'd get 6 rails on that little dance in the corner. Great players in that room. Dick Reid, Carlos Hallon, Paul Melinchuk, Larry Johnson and others.
Used to think we could put together a 5 man team that could beat any room in the country. They're all gone now other than Carlos.
Great times though.
 
Thanks for sharing this post. This puts it in perspective for me, but I have a question. For a person with 8-10 inch bridge, would you suggest a regular shaft or a LD?
That is a good question, and one that I don't have the answer to.

Are LD shafts more forgiving if there is error in choosing the point you pivot the cue around? I don't know, I'm waiting for someone to do the experiments on this.

In the meantime I will stick with a maple shaft that has a 12" pivot point. At least with it, the pivot point is in the visual field so I can see where I am pivoting.
 
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